Boundaries are about you - not them.

Well said, Golden! ((((hugs)))))

Golden--

You put that so perfectly!

People often think that by setting boundaries we are cutting people off from our lives and while that may be 'true' it took me YEARS of therapy to realize that I do NOT have to stand in the face of an angry person and just 'take' abuse b/c I felt so responsible all the time.

I see my mother when I can handle it, never otherwise. I will never see my MIL again. I have a 'friend' who used me to no end and I just kept taking it and wondering why I was so miserable. Finally came to the point I had to tell her I was 'breaking up' with her, she had caused me financial and emotional pain and I just couldn't, anymore. Having said that, I am taking dinner in to her tonight, as she is going through some horrific family problems. But, after today, back to keeping my emotional and physical distance.

I didn't do it angrily, but rather, quite lovingly. I think she was hurt, but realistically, she has burned out countless friends and neighbors.

I have a 'problem' in that I am too empathetic and want to make everything be OK for everybody--and I can't.

I even have boundaries with my kids. One of them is being a real jerk to me since last fall and I can't talk to him w/o being called on the carpet for something I do/did wrong. He lives 800 miles away, I am not a part of his or his wife's daily life. Angry emails and texts are simply deleted and not responded to.

I had cancer last year and it really opened my eyes to what is and what is NOT important.

Now to work on the 'feeling guilty' that sometimes creeps in.

It takes a LOT of courage and self-talk to remind me that I am NOT a bad person for self protecting.

thx barb and midkid.

mid - good points - you took abuse b/c "I felt so responsible all the time". yeah, that was planted in you as a kid. - it's all your fault. Abusers do that.

Boundaries are flexible - you can take dinner to your friend but you don't have to stay for the abuse "dessert".

I am very empathetic too - I can feel other's hurts, BUT that doesn't mean I have to try to fix them.

Boundaries with your kids - of course - with anyone if you need them.

Big life changes do make us examine what's important. That's a good thing,

I understand about the guilt. I have found the more you tell it to go back to the hole it came from the easier it is dismiss it next time. It's a lie and I don't like lies.

You, and all of us, are worth self protection. You are not a punching bag for someone to take out their hostilities on. Toxic people will blame you for their issues.

I once read "they will chew you up, spit you out, step in the mess and blame you for it." That was my experience. Not any more - I stop it at the chewing stage.

Golden, thank you for sharing such valuable insights.   I think the issue of who changes is critical.   Too many people feel that the other person has to change, also while not realizing how manipulation can be a critical factor in these kinds of relationships.

And this doesn't occur only in personal relationships.  I worked for a  few attorneys who were manipulative, shifting blame onto staff, and making life miserable for employees.    When I left those firms, I felt so much better; I didn't take a stand while I was there b/c of the possibility of being fired, but I got out of bad situations before they became worse.   

Kind of a side comment, and amusing now that I think about it...one of the attorneys who was I'm sure also suffering from ADHD made life miserable for staff and attorneys alike.  

Over a period of 5 or 6 years (I don't recall for sure), every attorney who worked for him lasted only 6 months before quitting.   One stuck it out b/c she was pregnant and wanted to get as much savings as she could.   The other stuck it out b/c it was compatible with his plans to move out of the city into a better quality law firm, so the longevity and knowledge was to his benefit.  He knew how to capitalize on a bad situation.

Unfortunately, self focused, demanding and narcissistic people aren't just in families.

Excellent, helpful points - thank you :)

Great Post! Thank you for taking the time to post this!

Too bad we can't pin your post to the top of the page.👏👏

Copied that!
So very good advice, thanks Golden!

YES ! This is a key point. I’ve only recently begun to set boundaries, and had to learn this from experience. I thought that by saying that I can not take on any more of my 93 yr old mom’s care, she would lighten up on me. Get more help from paid providers, instead of me. Ha ha. Exact opposite. She pushed more, and it felt more and more passive aggressive. Ugh ! I had to be reminded by another that boundary setting is for me. I can not change her behavior at all. Often it will get worse when we first set a boundary. ( ie They push back !) Instead I can stop giving in and (resentfully) doing for her. She has been given multiple outside sources for help by me and others.
Honestly though, I still struggle with guilt, even though I know it’s not reasonable.
Thanks for this post Golden. Saving to reread, along with the article you suggested.

GA - yes indeed, not only in families. I worked for a very narcissistic boss at a university once. It was a challenge. I learned to never disagree with him, but to get an idea to him so that he thought it was his idea -then praise him for it. It worked every time - he was happy and I got what I wanted. But I was glad when I left.

thx cm, dollyme, cw and send. Glad if it helps.

nancy - yes looks like you are getting it. You are right - when you set
boundaries it is common for things to get worse - they resist and push more. It is good to be prepared for that.

It can take a while to change focus from them to us.

The guilt is what is called false guilt. True guilt comes from doing something wrong. False guilt comes from not meeting the (often unrealistic) expectations of others or even of ourselves. We can take up a burden that is unreasonable and the berate ourselves for being able to carry it, Or others can lay reasonable burdens on us - like keeping a narcissist happy. Can't be done and not our job anyway.

Keep up the good work!!!

The consequences of enforcing boundaries are something to reckon with!
Harder to do with a spouse!

The accusations come flying:
SS did not assign Rep Payee to me. (Have document).
He could pay the bills. but I won't let him, he says. (He needs a rep payee, this topic came up because I try to include him in decision making especially at the first part of every month.
Many little digs coming at me. (Already raised a teenager, he needs to STOP).

He is the one with a visible sinus inflammation today, from making poor decision to ride bike in 45 degree weather and high winds. (Blames me for not getting to ride his bike). (I washed his bike clothes). It is a fight no one will win.

I bought moving boxes yesterday. Great time to organize!

send - again the boundaries are to protect you, but that will not necessarily stop the flack from your LO. You can create boundaries for that too. It doesn't have to be a fight.

Here is another article about how to stop feeling guilty when setting boundaries.

https://psychcentral.com/lib/what-to-do-when-you-feel-guilty-about-setting-boundaries/?li_source=LI&li_medium=popular17

Well said! The Boundaries book by Townsend and Cloud has been a tremendous help to me. And spot on, I set my boundaries and if others step over them it’s up to me to enforce them. Realizing you can only change yourself and not others is a huge realization, but so important. Thanks for sharing

Great article, nancy and so important. I am going to read it again,

Guilt can cause us to backslide into unhealthier behaviours.

Guilt is itself is a hugely important topic for caregivers - and others. Mostly it is self imposed false guilt.

Send - just caught this in your post "he needs to STOP"

No!!!

Boundaries are not about changing the behaviour of others, but about changing our behaviours to make our lives and relationships healthier.
What boundary can you set about this issue?

"

I've been setting boundaries more recently but as a rookie it's hard. I find myself second guessing myself a lot. Am I being too harsh? etc. etc. But I'm coming from a place of someone who has always had low self-esteem. It's only been recently that I've realized that my low self-esteem was triggered by people in my family. This started way back when. Any time my self esteem started to get better my family members shewed me back into the corner. Why I've allowed it to happen is something I'm just beginning to examine.

But in certain instances it's been easy to set boundaries. With my in-laws it became apparent almost instantly what kind of people they were and that if I didn't set boundaries right away with them I would be in trouble. I waffle between thinking I should try harder with them for my hubs sake to saying to myself No! If I give these people an inch they try to take a mile. They are quite elderly now and don't try to manipulate as much but I've set the standard for my relationship with them and it's too late to change now. I make allowances for their age and declining health cause I'm not a heartless person but still the need to protect myself from them is too instilled in me now.

I even have to put up boundaries with my own husband. He is a product of his parents and shares some characteristics. That's a fine line.

But I've been doing a lot of work on myself lately and it's been hard. I went to my Christian group therapy last night and I always come home feeling like someone beat me up emotionally. A work in progress.

Thx for this thread Golden.

Yes it is hard, when you start, Gershun, When I did I thought the sky would fall in, but, hey, it wasn't that bad - or not really that much worse.

Trust your guts - that was some of the best advice a counselor gave me.

I think low self esteem is usually based on the dynamics in our family of origin. I had that one to deal with too, and it still rears its ugly head once in a while. I was the family scape goat, sounds like you were their emotional punching bad, I can't stop my sis from being who she is - someone who demeans others - with a big smile usually. All I can do is protect myself by staying away, It upsets the FOO dynamic if one member doesn't play the game so they try to get you back under their thumb. I have no doubt you are right about your in laws. I trust your judgement and think you are quite right in the boundaries you have set.

I have boundaries with sig other and some with my kids and grand kids. If they want to stay here they have to do things my way. Now I do let a lot go, but some things I am firm on.

You know, Gershun, I am glad you feel beat up emotionally after your group sessions. To me it says you are doing the work. If you came out saying "That was a breeze", I doubt you would be getting any benefit from it.

Take are if yourself. You are going through a lot.

Golden,

Fantastic post! My mom did not accept boundaries. My siblings did not accept me setting them. I suppose I threw them into shock by setting boundaries because I was the only girl who had been respectful and obedient. With a perfectionist mom, it’s never enough though.

Caring for my mom and dealing with siblings broke me. I can honestly say that I fell apart. All of us have a breaking point. I certainly hit mine.

I snapped out of being programmed with the help of my therapist and the wonderful people on this forum. I was finally able to just quit. I told mom that my brother could now take over since he was a ‘know it all.’ I did way more than my fair share and if he wanted something else he could figure it out. She hired help for him. She never paid a dime for help for me.

My kids will never have to set boundaries for me. I will never allow them to sacrifice their life for me.

I guess all of the back stabbing backfired on them because I set a huge boundary by telling mom to move. My brothers made sure it wasn’t a peaceful goodbye which killed me but it taught me an important lesson which was to change what we can and accept what we have no control over.

I finally learned this lesson and am at peace. Being at peace doesn’t mean complete happiness. No one has complete happiness anyway. Life is full of ups and downs. I am grateful for all that is good. Healing happens slowly. Healing isn’t having a perfect life. We can make the best of our brokenness.

Thank you Golden.
My boundary is to call someone out if they start verbalizing digs, then walk away. I frequently walk away but return later.

So many meals are left cooking on the stove or turned off. It is okay not to have the perfect meal because I choose to protect myself from being hurt.

All of you have been a good influence on me, and I thank you for staying on after the caregiving ends.

The first time i set and held a boundary with my mom - was liberating! Her crying, whining, manipulating to browbeat me were done. She still tried all of the old tricks, but i had learned "No, that doesn't work for me. I love you, bye for now" click - hang up or walk out.

Boundaries are about YOU - the people who trample on you and are the reason you need boundaries will likely not change. They will likely amp up whatever has worked for them in the past. Hold firm, get help, you have a say, too.

I am now comfortable saying no in a polite manner and firmly disengaging when the other starts questioning me - No - is an answer. I do not need to justify my no.

Too bad i can't get back all of the time i spent doing something i did not want to do, boiling with resentment, just because i could not hold firm to the many people in my life who feel that my time is for them to assign me work.

Thank you for this.

Thanks Golden, I needed to see this. I need to see it every day. I feel like Gershun, like I'm still at tadpole stage or something trying really hard to get to frog status. I think I'm getting better.

Tuesday morning was the last time I talked to my mom. She called complaining about noise in the building. Another resident has been renovating and there has been a fair share of annoying noise. This is not against our rules here, people are allowed to renovate, even noisy renovations any day except Sunday.

So my mom was complaining and would not stop. I tried to say he's almost done, then I reminded her that when we renovated her condo we replaced ALL the tile so we made quite a bit of noise too, for months, AND she's about to replace her balcony tile (a stupid decision and a post for a different day) and that work will create noise. Still not good enough. She wanted to go confront the owner. I told her again, he's not breaking any rules. So she proceeds to tell me "If I would have known about these rules I wouldn't have bought here"...... That's ALL it took for me to say.... You know what, I'm hanging up, talk to you later. Click.

Later my husband saw her because earlier she tasked him with going to the tile store with her. She told him I yelled at her. Lol. No, I did not. Then she b*tched about the noise to him, and even repeated she wouldn't have bought here. He took it in stride and mostly ignored it. He just wanted to get the tile stuff over with.

First of all my mom did NOT buy her place, we did after she manipulated me into this horrible situation. We did ALL the work, funded everything up front spent six months doing daily work in my attempt to make this witch happy.... she paid us back a portion after she sold her old condo. She has regrets????? I almost wanted to break into some kind of insane laughter.

Anyway, now I'm getting the silent treatment.

Yeah..... I absolutely NEED boundaries with my mother.

Golden,

Instead of me starting a separate thread can you also speak about how forgiveness is also about us, not the caregiver that hurt us. I feel it’s all connected. Thanks.

Good post. Here is my issue: I feel I have "succeeded" in boundaries in terms of the actual physical requirements. My mother expects me to be at her beck and call. I have gotten to the point where I said I will be available for her two days a week, no more (unless some emergency of some sort). And I have been able to hold firm to that recently and my mother reluctantly seems to agree. Though kind of funny almost, we will go out with everyone for a birthday in the family, and she will make sure I know that that doest count, that is a fun thing. It isn't a fun thing, but OK it doesn't count. What makes me mad is even if it doesn't count, I go far beyond what I say.

The issue I have is having successfully held firm to the boundaries, I then struggle with the guilt and so forth. So I don't let my mom take advantage of me in terms of actual help, but still she in a sense has her hooks in me as I struggle with guilt after I have "successfully" set and kept the boundary.

Maybe that doesn't mean I am successful. I should be able to set and keep the boundary without feeling crummy.

Hi Need - thank you. Often the other person does not accept the boundaries - remember boundaries are about you improving your quality of life, not about changing them, though that can happen. My mother and sis never accepted my boundaries much either So I backed off more and more for my survival. Years and years ago as a young adult I came to a very serious point of being bent and nearly broken, and was not going to go there again. I know the treatment you had was not fair, Yes, healing is ongoing and happiness is a sometimes thing.

re forgiveness - I see it as you do - for us not the other. I know some who were on here think differently. It may be worth it's own thread. Let me think about it. Guilt is another topic that fits in. To be sure, they are connected. So is acceptance of how our loved ones are, and for that matter, how we are.

send - walking away is good. It is very OK not to have the perfect meal as you protect yourself from being hurt. It is not OK to stay around and be hurt. Good for you.

kimber - it is liberating isn't it? You are so right that no is an answer and you don't need to justify yourself and that the other will amp up their manipulations, After all they worked before, why wouldn't they work now? I hear you about wishing you had done this sooner. Me too, but I am so glad I am finally learning.

katsmihur -you are very welcome

piper - you're welcome. When I first came on AC I needed the support of others to keep my boundaries. I have grown a lot even in the past few years. I think you are growing too, I have found that reasoning with a chronic complainer doesn't work and nothing you can say will make them happy. Good for your hub -sounds like he has her number. The silent treatment is to make you feel uncomfortable/guilty and to break down your boundaries. I would try to enjoy the peace.

karsten - thx - be sure you are the one who sets the boundaries - not her You are setting them for your own self protection, so make sure that they are working for you. If including a birthday or such doesn't work for you then you can stay with that as one of the two days. It is nice if mother agrees but it is not necessary to have the agreement of the other person. Of course, she may express unhappiness, but your happiness and well being is every much as important. If you going beyond what you say is a problem, and you are doing it from guilt, then that needs to be worked on in yourself IMO. I found that mother didn't appreciate all of what I did for her. When I accepted that, it made my life easier. I agree, you should be able to set your boundaries and not feel crummy.

Detaching and distancing can help.

Another's happiness is his/her thing,. Our happiness is ours.

One reason why we don't self protect and set boundaries is rooted in self esteem. We rate the wants and needs of others above our own. In the short term, we feel "better" putting other's before ourselves. In the long term it sucks.

Some of us have been "trained" from childhood to put the needs of others before ourselves and we feel guilty if we don't I know I was "trained" that way. It does not breed healthy self esteem but leaves us vulnerable to being manipulated and driven by fear, obligation and guilt. (FOG)

I have put a lot of work into those issues for myself

Brill stuff here......

I think that was my problem - expecting my Dad to change hes never going to.
I had the same as others.

A Dad who, because he was old, and had brought us up. expected his sons to do whatever he wanted them to. He had to be main priority before our own family. We had to constantly prove our worth to him. He also though he could control what we do with our own lives - he was the father and his advice had to be listened to.

A brother who went along with it. Different family situation to me (and lived closer) so it wasn't that big a deal for him. BUT he thought he could tell me how we BOTH should care for Dad.

So I started with boundaries and he pushed back MASSIVELY. We've had all sorts, fake illnesses, hospital admissions. He lies, he manipulates he will do ANYTHING it seems.

Its liberating and I don't feel guilt at all any more. I am still poor at it though. He is very manipulative. I just chicken out and dont have the energy to argue with him or face the barrage of questions as to why I can't do something.

I do need to sort that out because I just try too hard to keep him happy.

Paul,

Don’t think you are alone in that. I fell into the same trap with my mother. I was expected to do everything because I was the only daughter. We get caught up in their way of thinking even if we oppose it. I understand how you feel.

I had the same situation. My mom and brothers felt the same way as your dad feels about your wife. They look at women differently, not like our generation sees females.

You have a daughter. I have two daughters. I have told both of my daughters that I do not expect them to be a servant to me.

I don’t have a son. If I did I would treat my daughter the same as my son. I wouldn’t expect more of my daughter than a son. That generation is sexist.

I also raised my daughters to be independent. I want them to have self worth knowing that they can have good jobs take care of themselves.

My youngest is graduating from her university in May. She majored in business. She just started an internship.

Women in our parent’s generation were expected to be in the home instead of the working in the professional world.

NeedHelp - yes his attitude is awful I've got to admit...

Hes said to me more than once "you need to sort your wife out". Wow what a thing to say?

We had a disagreement the other day about it. I told him I wasn't interested in his opinion on what my wife did and it was up to her what she did and whether she had contact with him. He didn't like. I also plucked up the courage to tell him I didnt want to hear any bad mouthing any more either or we would be falling out.

He hasn't mentioned it since...

Great thread! I was always the family pleaser or martyr or whatever you want to call it, putting everyone else’s needs & wants before my own. Then I would get overwhelmed or angry about it, lashing out in a not-so-nice way ... earning me the well-deserved reputation of being a bitch. FINALLY, after a particularly hurtful email from a brother about our mom’s care (which I was doing), I had enough. Informed sister who told me “that’s just the way he is & you have to accept it” that I was going no-contact with him, as I — like everyone — had the right to decide who I would allow on my life. He wasn’t going to be allowed, as all he brought was negatively & stress into it. That was my 1st boundary, and it felt liberating! Now I have a great relationship with him — go figure!

That was 9 years ago and I didn’t realize it at the time it was a “boundary”. I just saw it as no longer putting up with his s__t. Then I learned from you all about boundaries, self care, self love, forgiveness, & all sorts of other positive things for ME. I can’t thank you enough for how my life, my marriage, my outlook — all have changed for the better. Hugs, hugs, hugs to all.

Another positive — my husband learned from my positive experiences to set boundaries, too. He is no longer accepting the role of doormat in his family. They are NOT happy with either of us, tried everything to guilt him back to being it, and now just leave him be. Me? Last contact with them was almost 2 years ago & I only foresee having contact with them at a funeral, which even then would be minimal.

kdcm,

Guilty! I was guilty at doing everything that was asked of me too! Same as you. I’m telling you, it’s like a slow brainwashing since childhood. I raised my kids totally different. First of all, I didn’t prefer one over another and I valued what they said or felt. I will always listen to what they have to say, even if they disagree with me. They deserve to be heard. We all do.

In my youth, parents had the philosophy of, “Children should be seen and not heard.”