Boundaries are about you - not them.

Oops sorry mymomisold - thank you. Two kitties and a granddaughter are distracting me. Yes it is often the answer to happiness and contentment. I agree with everything you say. We will always have challenges.

nancy - you are so right about how and why people push back. Getting support is critically important. We all need it when we are facing boundary pushers. For me is is ongoing learning. We need not to feel guilty about setting a boundary for our own good, or give in no matter how the other responds.

If someone withholds affection trying to make you lower your boundary, IMO they behaving like a jerk at that time. Get affection, validation from others while you are struggling with this. Incidentally I know some very nice people who behave like jerks sometimes, Probably I do too! It's not black and white.

paul - you dad brought you up to be a people pleaser - and him in particular, I am glad you are setting boundaries and not feeling guilt any more That is success!!! But it seems, he is still using your need to keep him happy, to manipulate you. You don't have to argue, or justify, or face the harangue of questions. You can detach - hang up or walk away. You are right you can't change him. You can't make him happy. You can only change yourself. I suspect nothing and no one can make him happy. I am glad you set a boundary about him bad mouthing your wife, and he is heeding it. That is success too.

kdcm - You are doing great!!! I wonder if you have a great relatioship with your bro now because you set a boundary. Well done!!! It is catching isn't it? So good to hear that your hub is setting boundaries with his family. So much healthier. Some times we have to keep people on the periphery of our lives.

need - it is a brainwashing in childhood. We have to unlearn some things and learn others. I haven't forgotten about forgiveness.

Linda - so nice to see you back I have been thinking of you. I hope you stick around. Thx for the kind words. Whatever wisdom I have I have fought hard for. Yes setting boundaries is a life skill in many situations. Respect is a big one. Respect for ourselves and others. and looking after ourselves.

I like this quote
"If you don't take time for your wellness, you will be forced to take time for your illness". Joyce Sunada.
So very true.

elaine - you're welcome. We all need reminders sometimes.

gershun - the pouting etc is a way of testing and pushing your boundaries. This attempt at manioulation often happens after
setting a boundary. What is recommended is detachment, I will post some links below.

hurtheart - welcome . Boundaries can be started anytime and setting them is ongoing in life.

Detaching is often written about in relation to boundaries as you need it as a tool to maintain your boundaries. There are other tools too like dealing with your guilt about setting boundaries., forgiveness, acceptance, respect We will come to those

from https://blogs.psychcentral.com/imperfect/2017/04/codependency-and-the-art-of-detaching-from-dysfunctional-family-members/?li_source=LI&li_medium=popular17

"Detaching is a way off of the “relationship rollercoaster”. Detaching allows you to take care of yourself, honor your own feelings and needs, and let go of the guilt and shame that result from taking responsibility for other people’s bad choices.
 
What is detaching? ...
..
Don’t
Even
Think
About
Changing
Him/Her

Detaching means you STOP trying to force the outcome that you want.
 
Detach with love..."

other links -
https://psychcentral.com/lib/a-pep-talk-for-people-pleasers-for-setting-boundaries/?li_source=LI&li_medium=popular17

https://blogs.psychcentral.com/anger/2016/09/emotional-detachment-establishing-boundaries/

Learning how to set boundaries and how to deal with the consequences is an on going process. Setting boundaries will build our self esteem. and help us to balance our focus on others with our focus on self. It is not selfishness to focus on self but it is self care, and self respect. which is healthy.

We cannot control how others respond. That is their business,

I like the phrase "what others think of you is none of your business. "

Gershun, I just read your post here. How the other person responds does NOT matter. Usually the other WILL push back against new boundaries, one way or another. Expect that. They don’t want you to stop doing for them. Why would they ? They are benefiting from this relationship. I too have been met with the passive aggressive response. This might be sulking, or crying, or acting even more helpless ! Or ignoring me, dirty looks, or the silent treatment (etc). Some people use these tactics to TRY to make us either (a)feel sorry for them(ie pity), or (b)feel guilty for not helping in the way they want us to help. He/she wants you to give in on the boundary. Don’t do it. Guilt in that situation is not appropriate. You’re doing nothing wrong by looking after your own needs ! ! !
Others may push back with anger, yelling, insults, arguing, maybe even begging. If setting boundaries was easy, so many caregivers here wouldn’t be struggling as much as we do.
As for your possible reaction to this, yes, it is really hard. Especially if you live there. Mainly do not give in ! Can you leave the room for a while ? Get away in whatever way is possible in your situation. Take a walk. Depending on the situation, it might be helpful to tell them that these old methods of manipulation will not work on you. Mainly don’t further engage with them. Don’t argue, don’t apologize. Say “this is the end of this discussion for now.” Then get some support from someone who understands why you need to set this boundary. Write about it here for support. It’s a learning process.

Great post! I believe setting boundaries in so many situations is the answer to much happiness and contentment in life. It does take patience with yourself, forgiveness for that ever present self inflicted unnecessary guilt and lots of self talk. Thanks for posting and reminding me of this! As long as we breathe we will have challenges and unexpected events come up. You are so correct, self care is extremely important and personal growth never ends and rocks!

Thank you for posting this ! I wish I would have found this site before now when I was smack dab in the midst of it all! Nice articles!

Gershun - yes its hard. I get the "woe is me I'm so sad you can't do this one thing"

I'll comment more tomorrow Got my grand daugter here for a few nights and am just settling her in.

Nice to see people sharing what works and what doesn't work. Maybe we can find some solutions. Even just talking it over can clarify things.

I picked up a little on perhaps a need for detachment from people after setting boundaries. It doesn't have to be forever. But a time of detaching can help and is self protective. It doesn't mean you don't care but it means the other one can't manipulate you with, for example, the silent treatment,

Good night, folks Be good to you.

Gershun,

Passive aggressiveness is really awful. Lots of parents use that tactic. My mom did on occasion. I hated it.

The one thing I'm having problems with is after you've set your boundaries how do you deal with the pouting, the self pity, the silent treatment. That form of passive aggressive behavior is another form of manipulation that if it bothers you (and it bothers me) boundaries don't help, especially if you live with the person. Apart from moving out what can you do?

Golden 23 thank you so much. I needed to hear this today!!! Admins keep this thread up for all to see!!! It is comforting and helpful!!! Thank you again!!

Admins - This thread needs to be sent to all new forum members in a welcome email. Golden has such insight and experience, and the anecdotes will help give our newbies strength. I think every caregiver needs to know how to set boundaries, whether with a parent, sibling, well meaning nosey nellies. And knowing how to set boundaries enables us to help others in our life. This skill extends past caregiving too. I have an extended family member in transition of not looking like she can live alone. This drama is hitting too many familiar buttons and I have no reserve left, so I'm putting up boundaries to keep on the fringe of the drama.
I think at the core is respect. We learn that we don't have to take abuse because "well, that's the way s/he is and they won't change". We learn that our own families' needs matter. And looking after our own needs is vital, not selfish. We learn that the world won't come to an end if we say no. We learn that sometimes we have to make the tough choice to go no contact, even if it's family. Thanks for this thread, Golden.

kdcm,

Guilty! I was guilty at doing everything that was asked of me too! Same as you. I’m telling you, it’s like a slow brainwashing since childhood. I raised my kids totally different. First of all, I didn’t prefer one over another and I valued what they said or felt. I will always listen to what they have to say, even if they disagree with me. They deserve to be heard. We all do.

In my youth, parents had the philosophy of, “Children should be seen and not heard.”

Great thread! I was always the family pleaser or martyr or whatever you want to call it, putting everyone else’s needs & wants before my own. Then I would get overwhelmed or angry about it, lashing out in a not-so-nice way ... earning me the well-deserved reputation of being a bitch. FINALLY, after a particularly hurtful email from a brother about our mom’s care (which I was doing), I had enough. Informed sister who told me “that’s just the way he is & you have to accept it” that I was going no-contact with him, as I — like everyone — had the right to decide who I would allow on my life. He wasn’t going to be allowed, as all he brought was negatively & stress into it. That was my 1st boundary, and it felt liberating! Now I have a great relationship with him — go figure!

That was 9 years ago and I didn’t realize it at the time it was a “boundary”. I just saw it as no longer putting up with his s__t. Then I learned from you all about boundaries, self care, self love, forgiveness, & all sorts of other positive things for ME. I can’t thank you enough for how my life, my marriage, my outlook — all have changed for the better. Hugs, hugs, hugs to all.

Another positive — my husband learned from my positive experiences to set boundaries, too. He is no longer accepting the role of doormat in his family. They are NOT happy with either of us, tried everything to guilt him back to being it, and now just leave him be. Me? Last contact with them was almost 2 years ago & I only foresee having contact with them at a funeral, which even then would be minimal.

NeedHelp - yes his attitude is awful I've got to admit...

Hes said to me more than once "you need to sort your wife out". Wow what a thing to say?

We had a disagreement the other day about it. I told him I wasn't interested in his opinion on what my wife did and it was up to her what she did and whether she had contact with him. He didn't like. I also plucked up the courage to tell him I didnt want to hear any bad mouthing any more either or we would be falling out.

He hasn't mentioned it since...

Paul,

Don’t think you are alone in that. I fell into the same trap with my mother. I was expected to do everything because I was the only daughter. We get caught up in their way of thinking even if we oppose it. I understand how you feel.

I had the same situation. My mom and brothers felt the same way as your dad feels about your wife. They look at women differently, not like our generation sees females.

You have a daughter. I have two daughters. I have told both of my daughters that I do not expect them to be a servant to me.

I don’t have a son. If I did I would treat my daughter the same as my son. I wouldn’t expect more of my daughter than a son. That generation is sexist.

I also raised my daughters to be independent. I want them to have self worth knowing that they can have good jobs take care of themselves.

My youngest is graduating from her university in May. She majored in business. She just started an internship.

Women in our parent’s generation were expected to be in the home instead of the working in the professional world.

Brill stuff here......

I think that was my problem - expecting my Dad to change hes never going to.
I had the same as others.

A Dad who, because he was old, and had brought us up. expected his sons to do whatever he wanted them to. He had to be main priority before our own family. We had to constantly prove our worth to him. He also though he could control what we do with our own lives - he was the father and his advice had to be listened to.

A brother who went along with it. Different family situation to me (and lived closer) so it wasn't that big a deal for him. BUT he thought he could tell me how we BOTH should care for Dad.

So I started with boundaries and he pushed back MASSIVELY. We've had all sorts, fake illnesses, hospital admissions. He lies, he manipulates he will do ANYTHING it seems.

Its liberating and I don't feel guilt at all any more. I am still poor at it though. He is very manipulative. I just chicken out and dont have the energy to argue with him or face the barrage of questions as to why I can't do something.

I do need to sort that out because I just try too hard to keep him happy.

Hi Need - thank you. Often the other person does not accept the boundaries - remember boundaries are about you improving your quality of life, not about changing them, though that can happen. My mother and sis never accepted my boundaries much either So I backed off more and more for my survival. Years and years ago as a young adult I came to a very serious point of being bent and nearly broken, and was not going to go there again. I know the treatment you had was not fair, Yes, healing is ongoing and happiness is a sometimes thing.

re forgiveness - I see it as you do - for us not the other. I know some who were on here think differently. It may be worth it's own thread. Let me think about it. Guilt is another topic that fits in. To be sure, they are connected. So is acceptance of how our loved ones are, and for that matter, how we are.

send - walking away is good. It is very OK not to have the perfect meal as you protect yourself from being hurt. It is not OK to stay around and be hurt. Good for you.

kimber - it is liberating isn't it? You are so right that no is an answer and you don't need to justify yourself and that the other will amp up their manipulations, After all they worked before, why wouldn't they work now? I hear you about wishing you had done this sooner. Me too, but I am so glad I am finally learning.

katsmihur -you are very welcome

piper - you're welcome. When I first came on AC I needed the support of others to keep my boundaries. I have grown a lot even in the past few years. I think you are growing too, I have found that reasoning with a chronic complainer doesn't work and nothing you can say will make them happy. Good for your hub -sounds like he has her number. The silent treatment is to make you feel uncomfortable/guilty and to break down your boundaries. I would try to enjoy the peace.

karsten - thx - be sure you are the one who sets the boundaries - not her You are setting them for your own self protection, so make sure that they are working for you. If including a birthday or such doesn't work for you then you can stay with that as one of the two days. It is nice if mother agrees but it is not necessary to have the agreement of the other person. Of course, she may express unhappiness, but your happiness and well being is every much as important. If you going beyond what you say is a problem, and you are doing it from guilt, then that needs to be worked on in yourself IMO. I found that mother didn't appreciate all of what I did for her. When I accepted that, it made my life easier. I agree, you should be able to set your boundaries and not feel crummy.

Detaching and distancing can help.

Another's happiness is his/her thing,. Our happiness is ours.

One reason why we don't self protect and set boundaries is rooted in self esteem. We rate the wants and needs of others above our own. In the short term, we feel "better" putting other's before ourselves. In the long term it sucks.

Some of us have been "trained" from childhood to put the needs of others before ourselves and we feel guilty if we don't I know I was "trained" that way. It does not breed healthy self esteem but leaves us vulnerable to being manipulated and driven by fear, obligation and guilt. (FOG)

I have put a lot of work into those issues for myself

Good post. Here is my issue: I feel I have "succeeded" in boundaries in terms of the actual physical requirements. My mother expects me to be at her beck and call. I have gotten to the point where I said I will be available for her two days a week, no more (unless some emergency of some sort). And I have been able to hold firm to that recently and my mother reluctantly seems to agree. Though kind of funny almost, we will go out with everyone for a birthday in the family, and she will make sure I know that that doest count, that is a fun thing. It isn't a fun thing, but OK it doesn't count. What makes me mad is even if it doesn't count, I go far beyond what I say.

The issue I have is having successfully held firm to the boundaries, I then struggle with the guilt and so forth. So I don't let my mom take advantage of me in terms of actual help, but still she in a sense has her hooks in me as I struggle with guilt after I have "successfully" set and kept the boundary.

Maybe that doesn't mean I am successful. I should be able to set and keep the boundary without feeling crummy.

Golden,

Instead of me starting a separate thread can you also speak about how forgiveness is also about us, not the caregiver that hurt us. I feel it’s all connected. Thanks.

Thanks Golden, I needed to see this. I need to see it every day. I feel like Gershun, like I'm still at tadpole stage or something trying really hard to get to frog status. I think I'm getting better.

Tuesday morning was the last time I talked to my mom. She called complaining about noise in the building. Another resident has been renovating and there has been a fair share of annoying noise. This is not against our rules here, people are allowed to renovate, even noisy renovations any day except Sunday.

So my mom was complaining and would not stop. I tried to say he's almost done, then I reminded her that when we renovated her condo we replaced ALL the tile so we made quite a bit of noise too, for months, AND she's about to replace her balcony tile (a stupid decision and a post for a different day) and that work will create noise. Still not good enough. She wanted to go confront the owner. I told her again, he's not breaking any rules. So she proceeds to tell me "If I would have known about these rules I wouldn't have bought here"...... That's ALL it took for me to say.... You know what, I'm hanging up, talk to you later. Click.

Later my husband saw her because earlier she tasked him with going to the tile store with her. She told him I yelled at her. Lol. No, I did not. Then she b*tched about the noise to him, and even repeated she wouldn't have bought here. He took it in stride and mostly ignored it. He just wanted to get the tile stuff over with.

First of all my mom did NOT buy her place, we did after she manipulated me into this horrible situation. We did ALL the work, funded everything up front spent six months doing daily work in my attempt to make this witch happy.... she paid us back a portion after she sold her old condo. She has regrets????? I almost wanted to break into some kind of insane laughter.

Anyway, now I'm getting the silent treatment.

Yeah..... I absolutely NEED boundaries with my mother.

Thank you for this.

The first time i set and held a boundary with my mom - was liberating! Her crying, whining, manipulating to browbeat me were done. She still tried all of the old tricks, but i had learned "No, that doesn't work for me. I love you, bye for now" click - hang up or walk out.

Boundaries are about YOU - the people who trample on you and are the reason you need boundaries will likely not change. They will likely amp up whatever has worked for them in the past. Hold firm, get help, you have a say, too.

I am now comfortable saying no in a polite manner and firmly disengaging when the other starts questioning me - No - is an answer. I do not need to justify my no.

Too bad i can't get back all of the time i spent doing something i did not want to do, boiling with resentment, just because i could not hold firm to the many people in my life who feel that my time is for them to assign me work.

Thank you Golden.
My boundary is to call someone out if they start verbalizing digs, then walk away. I frequently walk away but return later.

So many meals are left cooking on the stove or turned off. It is okay not to have the perfect meal because I choose to protect myself from being hurt.

All of you have been a good influence on me, and I thank you for staying on after the caregiving ends.

Golden,

Fantastic post! My mom did not accept boundaries. My siblings did not accept me setting them. I suppose I threw them into shock by setting boundaries because I was the only girl who had been respectful and obedient. With a perfectionist mom, it’s never enough though.

Caring for my mom and dealing with siblings broke me. I can honestly say that I fell apart. All of us have a breaking point. I certainly hit mine.

I snapped out of being programmed with the help of my therapist and the wonderful people on this forum. I was finally able to just quit. I told mom that my brother could now take over since he was a ‘know it all.’ I did way more than my fair share and if he wanted something else he could figure it out. She hired help for him. She never paid a dime for help for me.

My kids will never have to set boundaries for me. I will never allow them to sacrifice their life for me.

I guess all of the back stabbing backfired on them because I set a huge boundary by telling mom to move. My brothers made sure it wasn’t a peaceful goodbye which killed me but it taught me an important lesson which was to change what we can and accept what we have no control over.

I finally learned this lesson and am at peace. Being at peace doesn’t mean complete happiness. No one has complete happiness anyway. Life is full of ups and downs. I am grateful for all that is good. Healing happens slowly. Healing isn’t having a perfect life. We can make the best of our brokenness.

Yes it is hard, when you start, Gershun, When I did I thought the sky would fall in, but, hey, it wasn't that bad - or not really that much worse.

Trust your guts - that was some of the best advice a counselor gave me.

I think low self esteem is usually based on the dynamics in our family of origin. I had that one to deal with too, and it still rears its ugly head once in a while. I was the family scape goat, sounds like you were their emotional punching bad, I can't stop my sis from being who she is - someone who demeans others - with a big smile usually. All I can do is protect myself by staying away, It upsets the FOO dynamic if one member doesn't play the game so they try to get you back under their thumb. I have no doubt you are right about your in laws. I trust your judgement and think you are quite right in the boundaries you have set.

I have boundaries with sig other and some with my kids and grand kids. If they want to stay here they have to do things my way. Now I do let a lot go, but some things I am firm on.

You know, Gershun, I am glad you feel beat up emotionally after your group sessions. To me it says you are doing the work. If you came out saying "That was a breeze", I doubt you would be getting any benefit from it.

Take are if yourself. You are going through a lot.

I've been setting boundaries more recently but as a rookie it's hard. I find myself second guessing myself a lot. Am I being too harsh? etc. etc. But I'm coming from a place of someone who has always had low self-esteem. It's only been recently that I've realized that my low self-esteem was triggered by people in my family. This started way back when. Any time my self esteem started to get better my family members shewed me back into the corner. Why I've allowed it to happen is something I'm just beginning to examine.

But in certain instances it's been easy to set boundaries. With my in-laws it became apparent almost instantly what kind of people they were and that if I didn't set boundaries right away with them I would be in trouble. I waffle between thinking I should try harder with them for my hubs sake to saying to myself No! If I give these people an inch they try to take a mile. They are quite elderly now and don't try to manipulate as much but I've set the standard for my relationship with them and it's too late to change now. I make allowances for their age and declining health cause I'm not a heartless person but still the need to protect myself from them is too instilled in me now.

I even have to put up boundaries with my own husband. He is a product of his parents and shares some characteristics. That's a fine line.

But I've been doing a lot of work on myself lately and it's been hard. I went to my Christian group therapy last night and I always come home feeling like someone beat me up emotionally. A work in progress.

Thx for this thread Golden.

Great article, nancy and so important. I am going to read it again,

Guilt can cause us to backslide into unhealthier behaviours.

Guilt is itself is a hugely important topic for caregivers - and others. Mostly it is self imposed false guilt.

Send - just caught this in your post "he needs to STOP"

No!!!

Boundaries are not about changing the behaviour of others, but about changing our behaviours to make our lives and relationships healthier.
What boundary can you set about this issue?

"

Well said! The Boundaries book by Townsend and Cloud has been a tremendous help to me. And spot on, I set my boundaries and if others step over them it’s up to me to enforce them. Realizing you can only change yourself and not others is a huge realization, but so important. Thanks for sharing

Here is another article about how to stop feeling guilty when setting boundaries.

https://psychcentral.com/lib/what-to-do-when-you-feel-guilty-about-setting-boundaries/?li_source=LI&li_medium=popular17

send - again the boundaries are to protect you, but that will not necessarily stop the flack from your LO. You can create boundaries for that too. It doesn't have to be a fight.