Caregiving for a narcissistic mother. Do we do it out of love or out of years of guilt and programming?

Jodi....this sounds like a HORRIBLE idea your mother has to move into a regular apartment near you! To pretend she's independent and rely on YOU for EVERYTHING? How will she get groceries and cook? You need to let her know you are NOT AVAILABLE but for a couple hours a week max, or whatever, and she'll need to hire caregivers to come in every day. She can't just move close by and expect you to be her bff 24/7 and she should be made to understand that before she makes the move. Nobody with mobility issues can realistically expect to live alone and she knows that. At the very least, she needs a senior apt complex where they provide a mini bus to take her to doctors appts because you are not available. If you agree to one of her terms, there will be 1000 more to follow and soon you won't have a life! 🤐

Lea,

You're absolutely correct!! The trick is trying to let her know how I feel about it and not have her explode at me!! When she gets like that, she doesn't hear a word I say.

I'm considering writing her a letter!

Any thoughts on that?

Let her know how you feel verbally and follow it up in writing. Who cares if she explodes? This is YOUR life and YOUR time she is expecting to usurp, ffs. Outline exactly how much time per week you have available, say 2 hours, and that's it. The rest of her needs will have to be attended to by someone else or by living in another ALF where care and food and docs are available on site, because you ARE NOT available. She needs to arrange for extra help and care by the time she moves to the new place. Love ya ma, but my life is occupied with A B C and D including CANCER and there's no time leftover for anything else. It's not ok or reasonable for her to force herself and her needs on you. Nope. You may want to throw another thought out there too.....that you and DH are thinking of MOVING to another part of the country in a year or so. Throw that out there. Your plans for the future are up in the air entirely, so please DO NOT make any living arrangements contingent on ME mom. I might be gone in the blink of an eye.

I read this thread all the time, but don't feel I should comment, because I didnt have a narc mom. (I DID have an abusive, manipulative now-ex husband, so I understand some of the feelings).

But....so, mom blows up. She can't harm you. She can't hit you, take your children away. She's gonna yell. And you can walk out.

There is great power in not caring how angry your parents get at you when you're an adult. You are no longer that terrified 8 year old who HAS to keep mama happy.

Barb & Lea,,

Great advice!!

I appreciate your input more than you know!!

Why is it so hard to put into practice?

I'm gonna to try my best to tell her, but if it turns into a battle (I suspect it will ) I will write her a very detailed letter.

Who would have ever thought that caring for our parents would turn out to be so difficult??

Jodi, write that letter! You can be sure then that you’ve said everything you need to say without being drowned out by shouting and hysterics, and you will have unburdened yourself by setting out your thoughts and feelings. The reason it’s so hard to do is that you’re dealing with someone who has an unrealistic expectation of their own capabilities and an unfair sense of entitlement to depend upon and lean on you. People like this have often got though life making such a fuss about things that others just back down for a quiet life.

Yes write that letter!
Even if it stays in your email draft folder, or in a drawer. It may make you feel better getting it out. There may even be a book!

Okay Jodi I have a better understanding now. Your mom wants to be closer to you so you can do more for her. She wants to be my mom basically. DON'T DO IT!!!

DO NOT DO IT UNDER *ANY* CONDITION!!

I'm telling you right now if I had a time machine!!! It doesn't matter what she tells you, once she is there you will be stuck in a nightmare. Your mom doesn't have cognitive issues so you won't be able to force her out once she is there.

If you think having trouble saying no is hard now, picture waking up DAILY knowing there will be another go around of having to go through the extremely frustrating and triggering experience of having to set and enforce boundaries with this emotional vampire.

And by the way, I say this with zero judgement because I DID exactly what your mom is trying to guilt you into now. I fully get how HARD it is to say no to these types of mothers. They groom us to be their physical and emotional slaves and it is so ingrained as adults we experience cognitive dissonance HELL.

I'm only getting slightly better out of sheer exhaustion. Bottom line, I can't stress it enough do not let her move one inch closer to you.

If it were me, I think I would write the letter. That way you can take your time and choose your words. But then I would talk to her, on the phone, using the letter as a guide.

Mentally prepare that she will freak out, and blunt your emotions before you call. Then calmly stick to your script. When she throws a fit put the phone away from your ear. Get out the important message, which is NOT MOVING CLOSE TO YOU, and then end the call, and turn off your phone.

Stay strong, you can do it.

Yup. Write the letter. All the better to get this out in black and white and in great calm.

I read a great little book the other day, Isabel Wolff's "The Very Picture of You". There is a useful subplot about a narc mom whose lies and manipulations almost ruin both her daughters' lives. An instructive read.

{{{{{ Hugs, Jodi }}}}}}

Anyone notice that a narcissist is not asking you to do something, not asking you permission, and there is never an opportunity to answer "NO". ???

It all just comes about, through manipulation.

What would happen if you said this...when Mom is making plans....
"Oh good Mom, moving sounds really like a fun distraction from a difficult year. Hubs and I have been discussing moving too! We think moving to Florida is a good idea! I have been looking and looking.

EP: Good advice from someone who's walked the walk. Sigh. Unfortunately.

Chris: You are right. I often say these women have never been told to SIT down and SHUT up so they know their histrionics and theatrics usually wind up getting US to cave and giving them THEIR way. They've used these tactics their whole lives with GOOD results, so why change? NOW is the time to say NO and to put your foot down HARD. Plant that seed in her head about YOU moving SOON Jodi, and that will throw her off balance as well. Give her the idea she'll be stuck in a new apartment alone, with no family around to bail her out of yet ANOTHER mess she's created for herself. These women are unfamiliar with consequences to their own actions b/c we've always been their PILLOW to fall back on.

Lea, I have to smile. My father was the only person who would tell my mother to sit down and shut up, so in the end she divorced him!!

Chris.....lucky and smart man your dad was!😁

I tried talking calmly to Mom this morning. As usual, she shut me down with lame excuses and the ensuing crying jag.

Besides the "I hate the food here ", she is saying that she can't afford to stay there much longer. I reminded her that my brothers and myself have offered to help financially. She told me that she has asked my brothers for help, but has yet to see it. So I texted my brothers and as I suspected, she hasn't asked either of them!!

The manipulation is off the charts!!

This morning when I attempted to talk about why this move is a bad idea, she turned it around to me being selfish because I don't want to help her. She apparently doesn't recall the fact that I spent the better part of 3 weeks unpacking her things, hanging curtains, lugging empty boxes down two floors and out to the trash and turning her apartment into a bright happy space!!

My saving grace at this point is that affordable housing in our small town is very hard to come by. And it's doubtful (I pray), that the property management company will be able to find her an apartment that will meet her needs and her budget!!

Because she is of sound mind, I can't stop her. That doesn't mean I have to make things easier for her!

Jodi, I am so glad that you can see that what your mom is doing is manipulation.

You aren't selfish; you are SANE!

"This morning when I attempted to talk about why this move is a bad idea, she turned it around to me being selfish because I don't want to help her. She apparently doesn't recall the fact that I spent the better part of 3 weeks unpacking her things, hanging curtains, lugging empty boxes down two floors and out to the trash and turning her apartment into a bright happy space!!"

She knows full well all the work you have done. Like Barb said it's GOOD that you recognize this as manipulation. I just want to add that I know how it *feels*. My mother is a MASTER at using guilt trips to manipulate. So much so that all of my life I have carried around this feeling that I am guilty of...... something. A vague sense of having done something wrong and like I OWE some kind of payback.

When I was in therapy in 2019 the therapist spent a lot of time talking to me about this guilt complex, so I became more aware and started trying to work through it. One day I was having a conversation with my mom and mentioned that I felt guilty about something - nothing big- I think I said I felt guilty for not getting my dogs in to get their nails trimmed sooner, something like that- and she said to me, and this is verbatim "You feel guilty for waking up in the morning". I was stunned and changed the subject. But that comment stayed with me, and made me realize how deliberate and cruel my mother's manipulations can be.

Her guilt trips aren't as effective now. I get angry as opposed to feeling unexplainable shame and remorse. In fact just last eve - my mom was here for dinner and we were watching football. She wasn't the center of attention so she started to get annoyed and got ready to leave at halftime. On her way out she makes a snide remark to me that "You used to walk me home, I guess not anymore".

I ignored her, but I also got angry. I frequently walk her home because nine times out of ten I'm helping her carry food back or something else. She was purely being a manipulating narc because she wasn't the center of attention. How dare the Super Bowl be on when she wants to talk about how the cloudy weather is pissing her off.

Then these types wonder why people don't enjoy being around them.

Anyway Jodi, if your mother tries to make you feel guilty call her out. Remind her of all the work you have already done, and start telling her that you are planning to move. She is actively trying to set the stage for getting her hooks further into your life. Don't let her do it.

EP,

Our moms could be clones!!!

I can't count how many times my Mom has stormed out of family get togethers because things weren't going "her" way!

I totally understand the constant feelings of guilt.

My therapist helped me understand that as children of NMs, we were taught that we earn love by what we do for them. So if we're not constantly doing things for them, we're not loved.

I'm to the point that I truly dread talking to her! I set the boundary of not talking to her everyday. That worked for a while, but she has started calling me everyday. I have decided that when she calls me today I will simply ignore it and wash down the guilt with a big glass of wine!! Lol

Piper, Jodi, Lea, you all articulate the experiences of dealing with a NM brilliantly and accurately. I’m glad you can all see this as manipulation and that you have various techniques to deal with it. I’ve found that writing about one’s experiences and coping strategies, plus reading how other people have coped, as well as the general forum support, have been so helpful in dealing with my own situation. I hope it’s the same for you. There are definite patterns of behaviour from our NMs. Reading about them certainly reduces the feelings of isolation, and taking on board the ideas of others is quite empowering. One clear message stands out for me: stick to your plan and don’t let the bad behaviour get in the way of it.

Chris,

Thank you for the kind words!!

You're so right!! Hearing from all of you, and knowing that I'm not crazy for feeling the way I do, brings great comfort!!

I understand how incredibly hard it must be for someone who's had a wonderful relationship with their Mom to comprehend why those of us who grew up with NMs feel the way we do. And harder still, to comprehend the immense guilt that we have to overcome!

As predicted, my Mom just called. I just let it go to voice mail. I did check her message, but she simply gave her name and said "you know my number ". So no emergency!

Also as predicted, came the ensuing guilt!

It must be 5 o'clock somewhere! Lol

EP says, "Then these types wonder why people don't enjoy being around them."
So true! ONLY an NM would ever question WHY people don't LOOoooove being around them and wonder why? Ridiculous.

Today was gruesome. I get a call from the MC at 10 am. The brand new adjustable bed that was $1200 isn't working and it's stuck with the head down & the feet up. The remote is 'frozen' and won't do anything. Oh, and they can't find the OWNERS MANUAL and wonder if mother threw it out? Did I mention that everything in her world MUST look picture perfect, like a magazine? NO papers can be on tabletops or out in plain view, ever. In fact, she's 'lost' her phone book SO many freaking times that I had to send an email over there to ask the staff to write our phone numbers in magic marker on her dry erase board on the wall so they wouldn't get lost again.

I called the store and spoke to knuckle & head, the 2 salesman who between them do not have one full brain. One gave me the wrong code to unlock the child lock he felt my mother activated by pressing too many buttons. He gave me the LOCK code. It didn't work. When I called back, head gave me another code, which also did not work! 3 hours later, I get a call from my mother who's gleefully shouting "DID YOU HEAR THE GOOD NEWS? MY BED IS BROKE." Honest to God, that is what she said. Here I am, flustered beyond belief, trying to deal with knuckle & head and then THIS! They then told me to call SEALY customer service, there was nothing they could or would do for me! Including a refund, nor would they honor the warranty unless the manufacturer said there was a problem! OMG! I called Sealy, got some guy named Muga I could not understand who swore to me he'd call DH at 2:30.........I got the MC to agree to let DH inside to be walked through the troubleshooting by Muga. Muga never called! The owners manual knuckle sent me was the WRONG one! By the grace of God, DH found the real one in her room and FIXED the remote! The child lock WAS on! I told the MC to REMOVE the effing remote from my mother's possession (who said I NEVER TOUCHED IT I"M DEATHLY AFRAID OF IT) and to put both the remote AND the manual up in her closet where she cannot reach it.

You can't make this stuff up. Now I'm sorry I purchased an adjustable bed for her. I should have bought just a regular old mattress & box spring for her to complain about instead of an adjustable bed that would be easier for the staff to get her OUT of in the mornings. She's already fallen out of it twice, which has her up to 57 falls (last I counted), but no injuries. Go figure. Now she's scared of the bed and blah blah. Whoever thinks that we have nothing to do once our LOs are placed in ALs have NO IDEA what they're even talking about. The headaches NEVER end. Literally.

Jodi, your NM is going to continue to twist, lie, manipulate & coerce you into thinking you're doing 'something wrong' ie: causing you GUILT until & unless you bow down & agree to her terms about moving. And, even if you DO, she will STILL continue to twist, lie, manipulate and guilt you into thinking you're doing 'something wrong' b/c NMs are never, ever satisfied with things as is. The grass is always greener on the other side, until they GET there, then it's brown & dead, making them want to move on to the next greener pasture, and so on. Stand your ground. She won't like it, but think about it, what DOES she like? Nothing. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't, so you may as well have things on YOUR terms and be damned! :)

Lea,
I am sorry that you had a horrible day!( I swear in today's world you CAN NOT get people to do their job or even know the products that they sell!

And your right, you can't win with a NM if your life depended on it.

My NM says, "she is a loner because she doesn't want or need friends." I say, "your a loner because you can't get along with anybody." Of course, I just say it in my head!! Narcs have tunnel vision and it is a very narrow tunnel! Wouldn't you agree? Hugs!!

Chris, you are so right! Reading about NPD and reading the posts, plus, talking to others about their experiences growing up with a NM does make a world of difference. Before this thread, I thought my mother was crazy (and she is), but I thought I was going crazy too. I felt very alone and that no one could even begin to understand the pain and horror of my mother and what she has done! That I was alone! Now, I see that I am not alone...that it was never me...it was & is her! That I am not defected and unlovable...she is!!! Thanks to Lea and all of you that share your stories. Hugs!!

Xray,
You need to find away to stop feeling guilty. "Guilt implies that you did or going to do something to cause another person pain or hurt them in some way." You have not and don't do any of this. You are a caring and wonderful person. I have learned that guilt is a wasted emotion...it adds nothing to one's life...but it sure can take away parts of you if you let it! Now when my mother tries to guilt me I ignor her or like EP I get angry. Your mother...All of our mothers should be the one's feeling guilty, Not us! They had us or raised us...they use & abuse us...they hurt us! It was their job to take care of us not the other way around. Do something nice for yourself. Hugs!!



I don't care much for Dr. Phil, but he wrote a book call "Life Code, new rules for the world we live in. (I think that is the title) I read it years ago and I swear as God as my witness that book is a guide book for spotting out Narcs. When I think back on that book and as I am reading articles on narcs there is to many characteristics that are the same. He tells you how you can point them out. It is an amazing book and in my opinion, his only best book he ever written. I think everyone should read it!

Lea, ((((((hugs)))))). You deserve 2 weeks off.

From EVERYTHING!

I just want to say how grateful I am for ALL of you!!

We share these absolutely frustrating and mind bending experiences and yet we're still standing!!!

We are all trying to carry on life as normal, when the truth is that our lives have become anything but normal!! And yet we're still standing!!

I'm honored to be standing with you ALL!!!

Xray,
It is truly mind blowing that we all are not drunks in some ally somewhere. We are way more normal then we have any right to be.

I am honored to be standing with all of YOU as well! 😊💜💙💚❤💖💗

Thanks Barb & I agree. I DO need 2 weeks off from EVERYTHING and everyone. Translation: MY MOTHER!

When I spoke to her tonight, she said 'they fixed my broke bed'. I said CHUCK fixed your broken bed, mom.' He did????????? Yes he did. Then she glossed right over it and went on to say what a horrrrrrrrrrrrrrible thing happened at dinner with the 'old lady' she ate with and how she was supposed to come to MY house tonight but is now too upset to leave her apartment. Sigh. She was worked up into a frenzy (as usual) and then saying she wants to die and I wound up raising my voice quite high to snap her OUT of the pity party she was having! I told her to be grateful she's alive, has a WORKING BED that my DH spent all day trying to get figured out, and that she doesn't have cancer. Sometimes it's all too much to deal with and I told her so. Then suddenly she can't 'hear' what I'm saying, so I hope she heard me say GOODNIGHT MOM.

Shell: Guilt means you feel you've done something wrong (like you said); Shame means you feel you ARE something wrong. My mother has tried so hard to instill shame AND guilt in me for my whole life. Not buyin' it ma. I have nothing to feel guilty or ashamed FOR. Neither do ANY of us here, Ladies. We've all gone above & beyond for our NMs and just b/c THEY can't see it or appreciate it doesn't mean we haven't DONE it!

We deserve a round of applause!!!!!!!!!! How do you get that applause emoji?

Lea, what you’ve just highlighted here is that despite just getting over one crisis, the NM swiftly moves on to the next “problem “ for you to fix, taking no account of how mentally and physically exhausted you might be from dealing with problem 1. They are already onto problems 2, 3, 4 and so on. If you try to keep up with this pace it will make you ill, as I can testify to. It’s amazing how quickly the “difficulties “ they have dramatised about the first problem just disappear as they move on to the next. In doing so they are dumping the burden and the fall out from each of these problems onto you, causing you acute levels of stress. For me, this would mean that after a day of this behaviour, I would be so wound up and exhausted that I couldn’t eat. I would cook a lovely meal then just stare at it before throwing it away. My mother, in contrast, would be tucking into her food as if nothing had happened. You’re right when you say it’s too much to deal with - of course it is. And of course the NM tunes this out, as it’s of no relevance or help to them to hear your cries for help. I would tell my mother the same thing when the demands got too much and I felt I would buckle under the burden. If I got a response to this it would be to say she wished she was dead (see what I mean about our NMs all saying and doing the same things?) or that she was sorry she was such a burden to me (in a sarcastic voice meant as a slur, not an empathetic apology). The only way I have found to deal with all of this is to reduce contact and to say no to many of the demands, especially when they are obvious “non-problems “. Otherwise, you are drawn into an ever increasing race to fix these never ending dramas, at great personal cost to your health. Let the calls go to voicemail and don’t respond immediately. Think about how you’ve been conditioned to leap into action to satisfy every demand, and instead try to over-ride this initial response. Do things on your terms, not theirs. In my experience if my NM doesn’t get what she wants out of me, she finds another fool to do her bidding. Now that’s unfortunate for the other fool, but it’s not my problem nor my burden.

"I’ve found that writing about one’s experiences and coping strategies, plus reading how other people have coped, as well as the general forum support, have been so helpful in dealing with my own situation."

Same here Chris! I only wish I would have found this forum sooner, pre-move!

My anxiety is high this morning because I have plans to go see my mom in a few hours. I need to let her know that depending on me for 100% of her social life is not sustainable, and she has to figure something out. I'm going to suggest she hire a companion once a week. I know this conversation will not go well and I am dreading it.

Piper, maybe this will help: I read an interesting article last night about dealing with anger in others. It suggested we need to accept someone is angry, which is an emotion after all and should be validated. However, we do not need to accept the aggression that results from this anger, whether this is verbal as in shouting, insults or whatever, or physical which might include shunning you as a punishment. Unlike anger, aggression is a behaviour and it is possible for someone to adapt their behaviour (whether they choose to is another matter entirely). Put simply: validate the anger, put boundaries on the agression. In your mother's case, you could tell her that you recognise her anger and upset but that you cannot accept her aggression towards you. You could then walk away so she sees that her agressive behaviour leads to consequences. When/if she is calm enough to talk sensibly, you can open up a dialogue again. In this way you are rewarding her good behaviour and not enabling the aggression. None of this will be easy and you may need to repeat this approach many many times, but it gives you a framework of what you will and won't accept. You have a suggestion which could help her. She can take it or leave it but aggression towards you is not acceptable.

Chris,

I love your analogy of problems 1, 2, and so on!!!

There are times when talking to Mom that I think we're on one subject and somehow she's twisted things to be a completely different issue! It's like I'm in some kind of time warp and missed an intire part of the conversation!

All I can do is scratch my head in amazement. How does she do it!!🤯

Chris....you hit the nail on the head. Moving from one invented crisis to another and another, that's the NM, even with dementia. Even WORSE with dementia! Instead of me staring at my dinner then throwing it out, I'm the one eating seconds and never feeling full! 😣 That's MY stress response. Eat everything that isn't nailed down as in more self punishment, I think. I've found addictive ways to shut out all the pain and inner turmoil my whole life. Eating drinking smoking. Never drugs thank God. Got rid of the smoking and drinking, still working on the eating. I also bit my nails horribly for 23 years. Oral fixations much?

EP.....once a week is a start I suppose. I hear you about the dread. I feel it ALL the time.