Caregiving for a narcissistic mother. Do we do it out of love or out of years of guilt and programming?

Stilldealing, sending you a big hug. I'm so sorry what your NM is putting you thru. My father was the same. Died with dignity and grace and blessed speed. Said he wasn't afraid, and never complained God bless him. Had a brain tumor which left him almost paralyzed on one side of his body, but he worried he was being a bother to others! Everyone loved him.
Then you have NM, who will go down kicking and screaming every step of the way, hissing and snarling, saying foul things to make us all feel bad ALL the time. Petrified to die, zero pain tolerance yet made fun of dad ALL the time telling him he had NO IDEA of what REAL pain even felt like! Only SHE knew real pain, meanwhile he is the one who had cancer and a brain tumor!!! Only now with the Cymbalta has her foul mouth calmed down a bit, thank God.
One of the worst things these women do IMO is chronically complain to US about everything, like you said. We absorb that pain and negativity if we're not very careful which is dangerous, to say the least. It never dawns on them that all their constant misery hurts us! Nor do they care. They just want a vent....like a toxic smokestack to spew their fumes out of 24/7. As if we can fix it. Makes us feel useless for not being able to, and I often think THIS is the purpose FOR the toxic venting. To make sure we feel their pain and our uselessness.

Hellebore.....I feel sorry for my mother sometimes too, but I also feel sorry for myself and everyone else she's managed to aggravate and pester for the 94 years she's been alive. The less I have to deal with her histrionics and drama, the better off I am. The better off YOU will be too. I realized long ago she'd never ever be happy or satisfied, yet here I was, STILL jumping thru all these fiery hoops and burning myself mercilessly, WHAT FOR????? That's when I was able to do less and stop feeling guilty. There's no pleasing these women, so stop trying so damn hard, you know? Take care of YOU and your DH, mother will be fine. These women live to be 100 no matter what, seems to me. Mines been dying for a decade now. Threatening to jump out of Windows, telling me to throw her out on the street to rot, and all sorts of other drama, and here she is, alive and well IN SPITE OF IT ALL. Took two falls this week alone, bringing the number up to SIXTY FOUR now, no injuries, you do the math. Every time the phone rings and I see it's the Memory Care Assisted Living place like it was at 9am this morning, my blood pressure rises bc I know what's coming. But they're dealing with it, not me, thank God, or I would have had EMS out here 64x at least to pick her up. Keep doing what you're doing and remember, you're not doing anything wrong. Hugs

Elaine, the Cymbalta seems to have leveled off in terms of side effects. Her pain has lessened in general, I think....although she's reluctant to admit it. Her dementia has worsened in that she is talking daily about the need to call her mother and go see her sisters and brothers who are all dead. She thinks she lives elsewhere and needs to go home, which is typical of later dementia stages. She's sleeping better too which is pretty significant bc she had quite a lot of sleepless nights before Cymbalta. A lot more wetting the bed and falling out of bed though. As far as our phone calls go.....big change there. She calls every night saying it's me again....just letting you know I can't make it over again tonight. If mama calls, let her know where I'm at. She's in a rush to get off the phone, like something urgent is pressing. Odd, bc all she ever did was complain before the new med. She'll sometimes tell me "me and the girls are going out for dinner tonight" and other assorted stories, so whatever. She thinks they go to one of the ladies sisters house for dinner.....very weird. I just go along with all the stories and it's nice not to be arguing all the time.

xray- I so appreciated your post about your aunt and mother. My own NM is in the very last stages of life, and is making the process so miserable she is alienating the very last corpuscle in her five, generally compassionate and caring children. i spent the last week coordinating 24/7 private duty nursing (she waited to long to make AL an option, none would accept her), home hospice care, managing a crises 'code' with CPR and EMT services (she recovered), getting a 'lock down' on her bank accounts so that her caregivers can't access her finances in our absence, making sure her bills are paid, changing her mail addresses...and today, listening to her complain about unhappy she is, she is miserable, she doesn't like what is happening to her...Yes, I get it. She is dying and she is not happy about that. But why complain to ME? I can't stop the cancer, I can't make her feel stronger, we all are going to face this someday. It makes me really not care about what is happening to her bc it is so exhausting. My Dad, on the hand, was the epitome of grace under fire. He didn't complain, ever, even though he was in much greater pain (also cancer) than my mother has ever experienced. His grace allowed us to share love, reminisce, make amends, and it was the one of the best experiences (despite his dying), for us both. And my mother, nag nag nag, complain complain complain, nothing is ever good enough...today she said she is 'giving up" and 'doesn't care anymore'. Ok.

xray: "Talking to my Mom is the polar opposite... My heart sinks when the phone rings and I see it's her! It's never a positive experience. She causes stress and anxiety consistently!...She causes herself major problems and drama, then expects me to clean up her mess."

I can relate. Let's keep talking on here to remind ourselves that perhaps what needs to happen is, ourselves getting more comfortable with Mom's DIScomfort since to a great extent nothing we do is going to make them complain less anyway.

I mean, obviously if mother has a fall and is in the hospital I'll come and see her, and help out with arranging hands on care, but I do think I've been doing more for my mother than I should have been. She's capable of calling other people to help her instead of expecting me to sit on the phone for hours listening to her complain, then give up my own life and personal resources to do things *for* her. She's not incapacitated. Time for her to step up and do a few things for herself.

You all have said some really wise things. Lealonnie, I'm tempted to follow you around and take notes. ;) Such as: "They wouldn't feel fulfilled if they lived in the Palace of Versailles and were married to the King (see 'empty inside') An empty vessel doesn't know what it feels like to be FULL. If we can look at it from a compassionate standpoint (which is difficult), it makes OUR life easier b/c we can let a lot of stuff GO that we'd normally hang onto."

That's probably really true. If my mother were a queen she'd be constantly stirring up palace intrigue among the court. She has such a compelling need for praise and adoration, I really feel sorry for her sometimes. It's so sad that she's been seeking validation from other people all her life, when the only true peace comes from within.

I'm working on the compassionate standpoint, but right now I'm just wondering what my endgame is. I haven't talked to Mom in almost a month. Honestly? it's been absolutely wonderful. No having to listen to whining and "poor me" for hours with no recognition that others are having a hard time during covid too. In mother's mind I have it made because I have a good marriage and a savings account... she actually tells me she's jealous of me all the time. What an odd thing to say to one's child except that as we know nmoms think we're extensions of them, and she maybe actually is jealous of what I've been able to achieve - especially in my marriage because I'm not hobbled by a crippling personality disorder that makes me put myself first in any given situation. Consequently I'm probably more able to participate in the normal give and take a healthy marrage requires.

I know I'm probably going to wind up having to get back under the yoke eventually, but I'm trying - mostly failing, probably - to think of how I'm going to manage her and this situation without absolutely losing my mind. I've been really depressed lately, due to covid and spouse being out of a job for so long. He's been leaning on me pretty hard for support too and we of course can't go anywhere or do anything fun like we used to, mostly we watch TV and play video games. But Mom won't care - if I just know if I call her it'll all start right back up. How lonely and pitiful she is (because she decided to live alone although we have other friends/family members she could move in with), how she doesn't have any money and how "nobody" helps her and my aunt (when my cousin is busting her ass for my aunt in some truly heroic ways) and bla bla bla. I'm sure she thinks she'll be able to manipulate me into coming over to deal with her hoarded home. But perhaps I ought to think of this as I learned in some scuba diving rescue training years ago - if you let drowning people climb up onto you they'll drag you down with them. I'm not any good for anyone else if I'm absolutely a basket case myself.

Perhaps I should just take as much time as I need to sort of get my balance back and ignore the opinions of other people and whatever they think I "should" be doing vis a vis Mother. They can't possibly understand what it's like to be the target of an nmom's control and manipulation issues unless they have one themselves. I do think she has some friends and community support who'll step up to help if I can somehow maintain some distance.

Shell: "She really wants me to move out and have me come over everyday to make her dinner, clean the house and do all the maintenance. Not caring that I just cannot do that! I have an autoimmune disorder and stress is the last thing I need. She knows this, but doesn't care." Sounds like you and I need to stay in touch vis a vis boundaries. Is there anyone else available who can help at all? Like even family friends or local charities?

Some of you have posted about having doubts about your LOs having NPD. So here's my 2 cents worth!

Being responsible for my Aunt has been absolutely challenging to say the least. Not because of her! Because of literally taking over someone else's financial, medical and quality of life! The phone calls, the paperwork and her life in general, has been a full time job.
Yet everytime I call her, she is so happy to talk to me!
Because of her Alzheimers, we have the same conversations over and over, yet they're mostly happy and loving! Great memories and happy times!
Even though it's becoming harder and more painful as her Alzheimers progresses, she still brightens my day!

Talking to my Mom is the polar opposite!
I stress before I call her. My heart sinks when the phone rings and I see it's her! It's never a positive experience. She causes stress and anxiety consistently!
She complains about everything!
She expects me to hang on her every word!
She causes herself major problems and drama, then expects me to clean up her mess.

I know that when my Aunt passes, she will know that I did my best!!

I fear that when my Mom passes, she finally gonna know exactly how I felt about her!

So how can two women who grew up in the same time frame be so opposite??

I truly believe it has everything to do with NPD.

So we all have to deal with the grief, the denial, the anger and hopefully acceptance!

We will never be able to move forward until we accept the fact that we may have been delt a crappy hand, but we don't need to let it define us!!

Reading all of your posts, I know that you are all strong, intelligent and perfectly capable women!!

I feel blessed to be able to pour my heart out to all of you!!😘

Shell,

My Mom doesn't have anyone either! She thinks I'm her BFF.

She lived with one of my younger brothers who is her "Flying Monkey" and it almost ruined his marriage.

Mom complained constantly that he was putting his wife before her(well yeah, duh)! So because she was no longer the center of my brothers universe, she decided to move closer to me in Montana. At least I had 3 years of bliss!

I have come to the conclusion that distancing ourselves from the narcissistic cycle is like eating an elephant! One bite at a time!

Try to choose one thing that you can control and start slowly!

Feel empowered when you can make even small steps!!

I still loose my sh!+ sometimes and cry that "I JUST WANT MY LIFE BACK ".

I guess in the long run, I am the only one that can make it happen!

Our NMs most certainly won't!😘

Shell, this forum is truly a lifesaver!! So many people dealing with the same things. I’m glad you have peace when you go into your bedroom and forget about NM for awhile.

Needhelpwithmom, thank you for all of your support. It does get easier without my NM but there are so many “moments “ that will pop up in my head. I try to retrieve the happier times in my head. She was always good to me growing up and always so good to her grandchildren.

But when NM turned 90 everything changed. Her brain changed. Her mental illness got worse. When she was in the hospital a year ago she referred to me as SHE to the nurses. “Is she still here “ Did SHE go to the bathroom? Instead of saying daughter it was always SHE.

I try to keep the negative thoughts at bay. Sometimes it’s not so easy.

Hellobore,
That's just it it is a mental illness, but this mental illness is one like no other. I too have mental illness, but it doesn't make me hurt people! NPD people hurt people and yet they see it as it is ok because some how they 'reason it' in their head!

You CAN NOT win with these people! Narcs do not have empathy, compassion, sympathy...your NM may believe she loves you, but love doesn't hurt, abuse (emotional, physically or psychological), use, or manipulate people.

NPD people are hypersensitive! In other words, you can say the tiniest little thing to them and it hurts their feelings; then they have to get back at you! EVERYTHING is one sided...THEIR SIDE!!

Your NM threw out your stuff and thinks nothing about it...what does that tell you! It speaks volume to me! My NM has done the samething to me. She has given some of my things away and thrown some of my things into the trash at no thought of how it would make me feel!! And they never see our side of things, which can & will drive you nuts!! It does me!!! Narcs value nothing...not people or things! Sure they may like someone or something, but soon find it of no use and throw "it" out.

Lea, is right! It is ok to feel however you feel and it is ok to doubt yourself from time-to-time and it's ok to wonder about your NM motives! But we have to tread lightly because they will and can hurt and use us up that we become a broken empty shell of the person we were!

My NM ignored me too as a child unless she needed something from me! I started care for her and cleaning up her messes at 9 yrs old...I became her mom!!

I believe that was your dad letting you know he was with you. I think that is awesome except for the part of you crying your eyes out!

My NM has no money for a AL and if I put her into an apartment I would have to use my credit and she will ruin it. She has ruined so much of my dad's things and his house and she has NEVER respected me and my stuff, so that is out! She doesn't qualify for a MC, NH, or anything else! There are no AL here that take Medicaid and I don't think she'll move out anyways. There is no where to put her. She really wants me to move out and have me come over everyday to make her dinner, clean the house and do all the maintenance. Not caring that I just cannot do that! I have an autoimmune disorder and stress is the last thing I need. She knows this, but doesn't care. I have been hospitalized twice because of stress and she keeps packing it on like no big deal! But that is a Narc for you! Living with her for 4 1/2 yrs has been enough to make me want to hang myself!! Not that I am going to do it! But she gets meaner and more selfish every week it seems. In truth, I wish God would take her and put her and me out of misery!!

When I came back home, I loved this place, but she has managed to ruin that for me as well! Now, I just want to move out and find my old self and some peace and joy!!

I am sorry if I seem harsh, I really don't mean to be! I think I am just burned out and exhausted! Hugs!!!

hellebore, I think of it this way with the NMs; they're totally empty inside. Incapable of feeling real love for anybody, so they 'love' us to the best of their limited ability. They truly can't feel empathy, so they have NO idea they're hurting us (for the most part). A person has to be able to feel empathy in order to realize what their actions/words are doing to another. Since they're totally self absorbed, they haven't a clue what's going on outside their own immediate personal space. They always want 'more' b/c they don't know what it feels to be satisfied; (see 'empty inside') They can't stand their husbands b/c they haven't given them 'enough' or carried them around on chairs their whole marriage (see 'empty inside') They wouldn't feel fulfilled if they lived in the Palace of Versailles and were married to the King (see 'empty inside') An empty vessel doesn't know what it feels like to be FULL. If we can look at it from a compassionate standpoint (which is difficult), it makes OUR life easier b/c we can let a lot of stuff GO that we'd normally hang onto.

Your mother probably gave your stuff away b/c she had no idea it would bother you to do so, and probably didn't care. She couldn't put the shoe on the other foot and ask herself, how would it make ME feel to have MY stuff given away? KWIM? It's a deficiency in her that compels her to do these things, you know? NONE of this is 'your fault'........none of it. People with PDs try to blame us for all of their issues, but it's NOT our fault they're this way. My mother has blamed everyone on earth for all of her problems, and still does, even with moderately advanced DEMENTIA! Even tonight, she called to say 'me and the girls were going out for the evening b/c we had the day off, and when I got out of the bathroom, they went to bed and ditched me, those son's of bi*ches'. Confabulating stories where she can STILL blame others and be a victim, isn't that rich? LOL

Elaine,

It takes time to adjust.

Memories come in waves, don’t they? Some of them knock us off of our feet.

We missed you so much when you stopped posting but understood that you needed time to yourself.

Reach out for support when you need to. Always wishing the very best for you.

Shell, I also have a half brother, my only sibling with whom I'm not on good terms. Haven't seen or talked to him in 18 years in fact. I had to go no contact for reasons I'm sure you all can understand given that he likely has borderline personality disorder - unlike my mother he absolutely has gotten up in the morning intending to hurt me. Once I got old enough to protect myself from him I did so, although I'm sure he'll turn up once nmom dies for whatever he'll assume is his piece of the inheritance. Not that he's offering to help with her care now of course.

Also, I'm sure my dad is still around, too. I have truly weird coincidences to do with him all the time. One time I was talking out loud to him about how much I missed him and right at that moment a song came on about parents loving their children forever even after death.... couldn't believe it. Of course I cried my eyes out.

I'm not sure I'd move out of the house if you're hoping to wind up with it long term. Any way you can make nmom move? I'll bet you're in my same boat where there's not much money for AL, but maybe you can qualify her for Medicaid.

Lealonnie said "I've come to realize it's okay to dislike her AND to love her at the same time; it's okay to question her motives; it's okay to question MYSELF from time to time, in other words, it's ALL okay."

Thank you. I really struggle with this sometimes. I do think that in her own way my mom loves me - it's just that it doesn't seem like it because she has such a limited capacity for empathy. Honestly I even believe she has no idea that something that would be obvious to you or me as upsetting even will be. Like you say, she has a mental disorder, and I have one myself (ADHD) so I guess I can understand how certain things are not always all that easy to control.

I admit I'm really dreading having to talk to her again about getting rid of all my stuff because she'll claim I'm "overreacting," though.... it's so exhausting trying to deal with someone whose default is always putting herself first yet somehow she thinks that's invisible to others. Now that she's older unfortunately she's got all this societal reinforcement for how you're supposed to go the extra mile for old people, "because they did so much for you" which she plays up to the hilt.

Sometimes I'm not even really sure why she had me since she ignored me most of the time when I lived at home, yet like most narcs she'll never admit she did anything wrong (yet SHE can complain about her own father, who probably also had NPD.) It used to hurt like hell but here again in a way I'm so glad I finally know what's wrong and how much of this is likely NOT my fault.

Shell,

They broke the mold with your mom. Same for your brother.

You could write a series of books!

My mom has her issues but I wouldn’t necessarily classify her as a narcissist.

My brothers, on the other hand, hmmmm...they do have a narcissistic personality.

I hesitate to even use the word ‘brother’ because they don’t fit the definition other than we share the same parents.

I had to learn coping skills to survive what sometimes felt like torture.

Every situation is different. It’s trial and error for all of us. Sometimes relationships end up being extremely limited or dissolve completely.

When I was obsessed with my mom and brothers, my blood pressure would go through the roof, my heart raced, I couldn’t eat for days, I wasn’t breathing properly and I broke out in hives.

My therapist told me that I was under such extreme stress that it started to effect me physically as well as emotionally and he recommended breathing exercises for me to do.

I learned to value myself instead of placing the entire focus on them.

It took awhile for me to accept my self worth. My therapist had his work cut out for him.

There were times that my mom and brothers ridiculed therapy.

Actually, they would never admit to the benefit of therapists.

Most likely because my brothers ex wives were praised by their therapists for leaving my brothers!

Of course, since my mom still looks at my brothers as her precious babies, she isn’t going to look favorably on anyone who upsets them.

I remember keeping a journal during therapy.

I left the room and when I returned I found my mom reading it.

She was hurt and I was upset. Not a good combo!

I told mom that she had no business invading my privacy and walked off.

There is power in letting go. There really is.

I thought that I was strong for holding on. I found my strength when I let go.

I am so thrilled that you are developing a plan to be free from your family.

In my case, two stubborn women in a house was a disaster!

Xray, great point!! However, my NM has nobody! My NB would have killed my NM years ago because he is a narc, but he is hot headed and physically abusive! He has hit her in the past, of course she lied to cover up what he did. He was her golden child...he never did anything wrong in her eyes and now he is a junky! I thought I was protecting her and it never dawn on me that I would need protection from her!!

Oh Elaine I am very sorry that your NM is physically gone, but still in your head! How horrible!! These women do so much damage to us and it doesn't even bother them...they never know what life is like for us nor do they care!🥺

I am in therapy but my therapist isn't much help. I can't change therapist yet because he is helping me get my food trailer & with the Covid no one is taking new pts! However, I have had so much help and support from this forum. I never would have thought that there are so many women dealing with the same issues and so caring! Even the joke thread helps!! Plus, my bedroom is my safe place. I have scented candles, a TV, a game system and more. The negative energy in our house is so thick you can cut it with a knife; however, my bedroom is very peaceful...thank God for the little things!

Once I made up my mind to move out our finances has been taking a hit after hit! So unfortunately it may take more time then I would like it to! I pray every night to God to help me fight a good fight and to preserve & protect me & my SO! Right now that is all I have!

I told my NM two weeks ago that I will have peace, joy, and love in my life with or without her it makes no difference to me! I am done with her!!! I want to move out and sell the house and put her into AL!!!!! I could deal with her for 20 minutes a week!

Sending you warm hugs!!💖

Pelar20,

Welcome!

Yes, these NMs seem to thrive on drama!!
After reading an article on Emotional Vampires, when my Mom starts the drama I know she "Needs to Feed". That's when I go "grey rock "!

Shell,

You asked why they pick on the one they need the most?

I think it's akin to "What came first, the chicken or the egg?"

Do they need us the most, or have we been programmed to meet their needs??

Hang in there!!
(((((Big Hugs)))))

Oh Shell, I am so sorry. I didn’t realize all that you have been through. A big virtual hug to you!!! I hope you can move out soon. You deserve to be happy. My heart breaks for you. Are you in therapy to help you?

I may have to go back to therapy. Even though my mother passed away October 31st, the negative tapes play in my head day after day. She may be gone, but she’s still in my head.

Thank you Early! I think your pretty Great yourself!


Elaine,
Yes, My NM can be sweet as pie for hours than rant, but she doesn't always rant when she doesn't get her way or if you did something or said something that offended her. In stead, she steals something of mine or from my SO...or tighten the collar on my cat so he is almost choked (if that makes sense)...moves things on me...throws away meat that I paid for...she has no limits or boundaries of what she will and can do to me...my life is pure H3LL!!!

My NM never treated me bad when my dad or certain people were around, but she sure did when it was just my NB (he is just like her) or other people who she didn't care for...then she was just mean & nasty to me! She pit my brother & I against eachother and now I have to watch my back because he has gotten people who verbally threatened me and he himself threatened to hit me with his truck! Plus, he has egged my jeep three times and my truck once! (We now have cameras up) But the cops won't do anything even though this is the second time. He has been telling people this house is his and he is going to throw me & my SO out after my NM dies!! However, this house is my family home and his name isn't on the deed. My NM Quit Deed the house to me upon her death, but she has told me that I don't deserve the house after I saved it (made her file bankruptcy) paid the back taxes, paid taxes for 2017, 2018 and all the house insurance (2016, 2017, 2018, part of 2019) & had the furnace replaced because it died in the middle of winter and she had no money; moreover, sealed the flat roof (leaking into the kitchen), sealed the basement (leaking into the basement) and the list goes on and on! What do I get... kicked in the gut (so to speak). And yes, my NM has had me looked for things & paperwork and she knew where it was! But hey, she is the victim!!!! And yes I have the deed to the house, the will, both POAs!


**Just thinking my NM is not very smart by hurting the person she needs to rely on!


I know this is psychological abuse, unfortunately I live with her & we are trying to save money to move out! I usually gray rock her, but that doesn't stop her from her bs!

Heavy sigh!!!!

sending more hugs to us all!! :)

by the way, instead of calling them "my NM..."

it might make more sense to call them, "my torturer".

this way, it's clear in our minds what's happening. these "narcs"/torturers, are torturing us.

protect yourselves.
hug!

bundle of joy :)

big hugs to all of you, caregivers!! :) :)

narcs (they're sadistic) (they use psychological torture and enjoy it) (they're very aware of what they're doing: you can tell, because they choose a specific target. often it's mother against sweet daughter. they don't treat everyone like that. they know they have to behave nicely in front of some people)...

how nice it would be if one day, narc behavior doesn't exist:
all narcs become sweet people :).

well, for now, narc behavior exists.

i don't believe there are many solutions:
--low or no contact
--become a narc yourself (a narc doesn't feel much pain from another narc) (the sweeter, kinder you are, the more pain you'll feel when someone is mean to you). however, of course, we should not become narcs.
--grey rock (but do you really want to become a person who doesn't feel much? who acts in a monotone way, from time to time?)

...unless one finds some superhuman way not to feel hurt by psychological torture, then the pain/stress received will continue.

but torture is torture.
it will have effects, i believe.
physical and mental, on us.
--it's like being beaten up physically: that's very clear that, with repeated encounter with the bully, we'll get more and more bruises.
--being beaten up psychologically is invisible (that's even why some people do it!!! hard to get away with beating someone up physically, eventually the police might get involved). but psychological torture will indeed leave bruises. we'll get more and more bruises with every encounter. heal yourself. hug!!!

so really, the only thing i see is:
low or no contact.

big, big hugs!!! :)
be happy, have fun, live!

bundle of joy :)

Shell, big hugs to you. I am so sorry what you are going through with your mom.

Was your NM like mine as in my NM could be sweet as pie one minute and and hour ranting and raving about something that didn’t go her way. Can you relate to this?

Last February, 8 months before my NM died, she literally called me 8 times within 5 hours!!! She called me at 11:00pm and the last call 5 hours later was 4:00am. I work the overnight shift so I am up, but the question is why is SHE still up?

The first few calls she made she left voicemails on my cellphone telling me what she ate and what she watched on tv.

The last 3 calls were all around 4am frantic and telling me to come over because it was urgent. When I called her back at 4:30am before heading home from work, she said come over now and look for the deed to her house. I said can it wait? She screamed NO. So I went over snd searched through all her stuff on the chairs and couldn’t find the deed to her house.

I had remembered her telling me 15 years ago that she put the deed in her desk. Sure enough it was there.

I just wondered if you went through that with your NM. Fine one minute and FRANTIC the next.

I heard a new term today and immediately thought of my NM!

B!+chcraft!!

I find it a great explanation for the Vodo manipulation that we deal with!!

Hope it makes you giggle!!

Shell, I think you are a wonderful human being and I like you very much! Sorry you had such a hard life. I like reading your posts. Big hug.

Thank you Lea!
I do think I am a pretty cool cat and very loveable and that is what gets to me!! How can my mother not love me? Yes, I know...her brain is broken! She doesn't think the way most of us do!!

Yes it is very cool that my dad made himself known. I stood in the dining room and said out loud "dad I know you are here. I can smell you. Then I said hi." The hi part was to make myself laugh and it worked!

Good nite Lea! Sending a loving hug back to you.

Hellebore,
I love my NM and I dislike her. I also hate what she has done to me and what she let my NB do to me! It really is okay to have mixes feelings about your NM!

I don't believe my NM wakes up with the intention to hurt me, but she does and will!! Like you, I am fairly new to this as well. I always knew that there was a pathology in my family; I just didn't know what it was or even who was doing it. I figured it out because Xray started this thread and one night I decided to read some of the post and there were so many similar stories...as if someone was writing details about what my NM has done and/or was doing to me. It was like a light had been turned on. My first thought was no my mom is not a Narc, but the truth was staring at me in the face! Like Lea said, "No one wants NM." But we have to face the God awful truth to heal. And yes we are made to doubt ourselves, but I see it as a way to learn to trust my feelings...my gut!

It does take time to digest what we learn about our NMs and what they have done to us and how their behaviors effect us...their way of seeing us not for who we really are, but what they have made up inside their minds. They see us as an enemy or a threat. I once told my NM that she made up in her mind that I was a threat and she declared war on me, a war that was never real, but it is very real to her and her alone! She had no response, which I didn't expect her to have a response because really, what does someone say to that?! Nothing!!

We all would love to believe that our NM love us, but we know that is not the case! My NM use to tell me that she loved me and I thought that she just said it to keep me around and to make it sound like she was a good mom, but one day, she said it and I really looked at her and could tell that she believes that she does love me! Does that mean she really is capable of love-no it doesn't, but it does mean that SHE Believes that she does!! SHE Believes It! Believing in something doesn't make it true.

I was raised to respect my NM and to never doubt her. If mom says it's good, it's good. If mom says it's bad, it's bad! So I am fighting with that teaching...I think we all our...sure our teaching may be somewhat different, but we are all fighting against what our NMs taught us!!

Remember love is a chemical that gets released from the brain, but like or disliking someone is facts that our brain puts together to make up the picture or an idea of someone. So what am I saying? It is very possible to love someone and dislike them at the same time!

Just a thought!

Shell.....know what I like to say? You can sugar coat a turd but it's still a turd. 🤣 I don't believe in speaking anything but the truth either, especially bc my mother is the Queen of the two faced b.s. artists. It's not important for everyone on earth to love you.....just for YOU to love You! And your SO and your close friends, that's all. And your dad still loves you and showed himself to you today in the dining room via his cologne scent! How cool was that? He's still guiding and loving you in spirit from the other side, and you do feel that! Just bc you can't see him doesn't mean he's not standing right beside you every day. Sending you a big hug tonight.

Thank you Barb!

I love all my friends here!

Shell, ((((((hugs)))))))). We love you.

Lea,
I wouldn't give my NM the satisfaction of breaking me...all that I have been throughout my life...all the battles I have been through...all the people who tried to break me...to cave at my NM's meanness and her nastiness...NEVER!

Thank you for your kind and loving words!

I just woke up sobbing and couldn't breath. I been having night terrors. It seems this situation and being back here has been a big trigger for me. In learning what my NM truly is and what she has done to me is overwhelming; plus, I miss my dad so much! She would never behave this way to me if he was here! Yes, she has done some awful things to me, but as you remember she never did it in front of my dad! In a lot of ways, he was my rock and when he died so did apart of me! I could go out into the world and kick butt...do my thing because I knew he was here...my safety net...the one to show me the way...the one who was my soft place to land if I should fall! He loved me even when I acted crazy...or out of line. He never lied to me and told me the truth even if, it wasn't what I wanted to hear. He told me no when I wanted something that he knew wasn't good for me. He wasn't prefect and he be the first one to tell you that. But he loved me even when he didn't understood me! The worst part is that I never understood that until these last few years. My dad could never understand where my hardness came from and I myself didn't know where it came from either, but it came from being bully by my NM & NB!

I really don't have lots of people that love me. In truth, most people dislike me & don't understand me!!! My personality is one you will either love or hate there is nothing in between. I am rough around the edges and I tell the truth and it may not be what you would want to hear! I respect the truth and wish to be told the truth. I do not sugar coat it and although, I never want to hurt anyone's feelings I just cannot lie to people I care about! My dad was a lot like that & I guess the apple didn't fall far from the tree! I love hard and I fight even harder & people miss understand that!

My SO tells me that I am still grieving over the loss of my dad & that I haven't really excepted that he is really gone! But tonight I walked through the dining room and for one second I could smell him then it was gone as fast as it came!

I wonder sometimes if this world is made up of energy (as some believe) and we do have electricity running through our bodies and our emotions are powered by the electricity (energy) does my dad feel the vibrations I am sending out? I don't know!!! Just a thought!!! Oh how I wish he was here to help me...he would know what to tell me in all his wisdom! He taught me a lot, but he didn't teach me how to handle a mother who hates you because he may not have had that experience. He wasn't close to either of his parents like you, he was adopted. His adopted mom was really his aunt! And to make things even more confusing his adopted mom had a twin sister and he was very close to her and her husband and they all lived in one house!

I did go out today and smelled the fresh air and let the sun beat on me! Spring is on it's way and that alone makes me smile!🌞

Thank you💜

hellebore says, "And you know, I think part of me is still in denial about this. I don't want her to be NPD because I do know there's some good in her and in her defense I don't think she gets up every day and sets out to hurt me or other people."

Nobody 'wants' an NM, let's face it! I think it's ok to love an NM and to recognize she's an NM at the same time. I don't think my mother wakes up every day (like some do) and says, "Oh I'm going to hurt my daughter today" yet she still does. That doesn't take away from the fact of what she is, and that is mentally ill. You don't hate a person b/c they're mentally ill, but you make a decision to protect yourself from them as much as possible, knowing that they're going to hurt you a lot. And gaslight you and do certain things to push the buttons they've installed on you.

It's not like having a narc husband that we can divorce........this is a mother that most of us want to keep in our lives. Sometimes we can't & have to go no contact, but many times we can keep some contact with them & have SOME semblance of a relationship.

Narcs also have a way of making US second guess OURSELVES. "Is she really THAT bad?" It's a form of gaslighting, actually. I was raised to praise my mother & to never say or to think a bad thing about her, ever. So questioning myself comes naturally, as was the goal all along. I've come to realize it's okay to dislike her AND to love her at the same time; it's okay to question her motives; it's okay to question MYSELF from time to time, in other words, it's ALL okay. Whatever we're doing to cope or to maintain ANY type of relationship with these women is better than the alternative which is to have NO relationship at all & to cut them out of our lives forever *which is necessary for some to survive*

Just my 2 cents on the subject