Caregiving for a narcissistic mother. Do we do it out of love or out of years of guilt and programming?

Lea,
I notice that my NM was reading her Bible weeks before she passed. She was also asking me about the 'unforgivable sin'. So Tuesday the 13th I got this feeling that she didn't understand how salvation worked and something told me to tell her the back story of Apostle Paul & that if God could forgive Paul and use him to write most of the NT then HE could forgive her. So, I told her all that was in my spirit & heart. What she did to me, my brother, and my dad, but that God would forgive her and if she just believed Salvation was hers! That no one on earth was worthy nor could it be earned. All she had to do was receive it & it was hers! I could see the pain in her face of what she did. I do believe that she was truly sorry! I believe that Tuesday she repented and on Wednesday she wrote the letter and passed away on Friday. It was the only thing she knew what to do.

I found the letter in her Bible & I could see right where she was reading different parts of the Bible & she really was looking for answers to salvation. It brings joy to my heart to know that I could show her the way. I tear up about it every time I think about it!

Maybe your right! Maybe she did love me, although I look back on my life & don't see the love, but I really think your right on about she was compelled to hurt me & she didn't know why. My NM diffently had OCD! Aren't most OCD people hoarders? My SO thinks she hated herself so much that she transferred that hate on to me!

I wouldn't let my NM clean anymore either after scrubbing the numbers off my stove!!

Thank you for showing me it really was mental illness and she wasn't an evil person!

Shell, I think that when you are finding your old things in your mother’s room, they are triggering strong past memories, and it is the memories that are upsetting and overwhelming you, just as much as the bereavement itself. Nostalgia can cause powerful emotions, good and bad. Is there an urgency to sort and clear her room, or can you step back for a while when it gets too much?

Lea, there is comfort in knowing your BIL went quickly and without pain. It’s much harder for those left behind when this happens though.

Thanks Shell.

I didn't know your mother left you a letter. I believe she DID love you, in the only way SHE was capable..........and her mental illness compelled her to do hurtful things to you. I think we're sometimes driven to do things and we don't even know WHY (OCD) which is the C part of the OCD & part of mental illness. My mother used to clean and clean and CLEAN and once, when she was 'helping' me, she scrubbed all the numbers off of my oven control knob so I never knew what temperature I was cooking at! That's how compulsive she was at cleaning. Needless to say, that was the last time I let her 'help' me clean. Your mother probably felt compelled to do things to you and had no idea WHY. That's not an 'evil' person but a mentally ill one that never asked for medical help (similar to my own mother). She apologized to you and while that can never 'fix' all the problems she caused you, it seems genuine that she wrote such a letter right before she died, and you can use it as a means of comfort. Who knows exactly 'why' you are feeling the way you are/having the dreams, but you've been through an awful LOT the past few years, and IDK about you, but I break down when something is OVER, not while it's going ON, you know?

Lea,
I am sorry to read about your BIL. It is nice that he went quickly. You have to love family, especially the ones who want things their way, but don't want to help in anyway including paying for the funeral. Ugh!! I would tell them they need to help pay maybe 10%. But like my dad use to say, "You can't get blood out of a turnip!" Heavy sigh for you! Hugs!!


Chris,
I did have it out with her. I knew she was dying, so I took the opportunity to tell her EVERYTHING! She cried!! It was like she got it! As if God HIMSELF opened up her mind & heart. She understood what I was saying...I could see the "light bulb" moment! She left me a letter in her Bible telling me that "she was so sorry for everything she did to me. She went on to tell me that she loves me & knows I don't believe her. She also said, that she wanted my SO & I to have a good life." I think she wrote the letter 2 days before she died.

I am wondering if my problem is from cleaning out her room and finding things that she took from me to sabotage me like my 4th grade homework or a recipe that I used to make for my dad when I was about 11 yrs old! Plus, just shock that she is finally gone. Guilt from not missing her and making her cry 3 days before she died. Feeling very overwhelmed cleaning out this house! Just everything?!

Your letter idea is great & it does work because I did that with my dad after I figured out that he did in fact loved me & that my NM lied to me my whole life! I will probably write her a letter as well, but it might be awhile...when I am ready! Cognitive therapy is hard work, but I'll do anything to heal! Thank you for your kind words & support! Hugs!!

💞

Thank you all, I appreciate the kind words. DH pretends he's 'fine' but he's not. He's over at his brother's place cleaning it out, with the help of his son & the son's wife, as that is his way to 'get something done and not have to think' about the hurt he's feeling. The place is small so he told me to stay home. The brother's rent is due tomorrow, so they figured it would be smart to get the place packed up today; meanwhile, his sister said the deceased brother owed her $$$ and it's 'hidden' somewhere in the apartment. Naturally, she has no idea how much it is, a dollar or a thousand, which makes no sense but that's how she rolls........like a empty headed beach ball. So they have the added stress of looking for cash but not knowing where it's at or how much it is. Fortunately, he rented a furnished place so there is no furniture to move. So all they have to do is look thru the drawers/underneath the furniture, and load the soft goods into bags/boxes, and then they can drop it all off at the air-headed sister's place to look thru if they don't find the $$$. BUT, she just had her foot amputated (!) up to the knee and is in a wheelchair, so they can't leave her with a truckload of stuff to go through, either. If they find the $$, they can drop most of his stuff off at the ARC donation site and the $$$ off at the sister's house.

My other SIL just called me with some details about BILs 'organ donations' b/c she said my DH is 'grouchy'. Gee, I wonder WHY when SHE is sitting on her arse at home making excuses why she can't help them do the packing and is just making phone calls all morning long? Ah, gotta love family dynamics, huh? And there are 5 of them to muck up up the family dynamics something FIERCE. As far as I'm concerned, my DH is the only normal one out of the bunch. Brother #2 is fighting with Sister #2 so they had to make sure they didn't show up together or a giant brou-haha would break out; sister #3 is in the wheelchair after the amputation b/c she refused to pay attention to out-of-control diabetes for 25+ years........ugh. Truly like a soap opera gone very bad.

My SIL told the coroner that the deceased brother gave up all rights to his 2 daughters (next of kin) many years ago (!) and so the coroner is releasing the body now to have whatever organs can be harvested surgically removed today; we can then proceed with the burial.

The brother died penniless, too, aside from the 'hidden money' in the apartment so the family will have to cough up the money for the burial. Translation: WE will have to cough up the money for the burial b/c the others will come up with a ton of excuses as to why they 'can't afford it' when they just received the same 'covid stimulus payments' we ALL did.

I feel badly that my BIL died but glad that he did so quickly & painlessly; just collapsed in the parking lot and it was over in a minute. I watch (we all watch) our mothers suffer and cause others to suffer for years & years with dementia & ongoing issues, so his passing, while it was a shock, was a blessing at the same time in certain ways. I wish he got to live a longer life, but the life he did live was on HIS terms in every way imaginable, without being a burden to others.

lealonnie, so sorry for the terrible news. How sad and so young. Oh you all have been through enough. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

Beatty, Piper, Katsmihur, it's important to keep telling yourself that:

A) You are not responsible for your parent's behaviour nor for the choices they make about their daily living arrangements. If the courts and health professionals feel that things are not so bad yet that they will not intervene, it does not fall to you to intervene instead.

B) If there is a subsequent crisis, it is not your fault.

Piper, DH emailed his brother about not wishing SIL to muscle in at MIL's funeral (put diplomatically of course). Since then, stony silence. Phone calls, texts, emails relating to any of the formalities all ignored. All we can do is carry on regardless, with funeral planning and sorting out MIL's estate etc as there is no help with that either. My DH feels SIL is being disrespectful and this is adding to his grief. We expect to make the 4 hour drive to the funeral, go through the motions, and come home again. He's not bothered after that if he never sees his brother again. It's all very sad.

Exhausted and Beatty, I’m looking at the same thing with Mom. Where is the line in the sand between living by herself and moving elsewhere?

Until she is persuaded out of her stubbornness ( ha ha ha ) to see a neuro and has the diagnosed MCD described to her with a prognosis, I guess she stays put in her home.

I may have an opening come the first heat spell we have. EVERY year, she keeps windows and doors closed and sits in front of a small oscillating fan, without the working, all-house A/C on, while her face glistens with sweat. Had a heat-related ER visit six years ago when this scenario occurred after turning on the oven for her frozen fish dinner.

Area Agency on Aging will be called this year for an assessment!

Good luck to us all.

Beatty, yes I know the risk of the boiling frog. Very appropriate for you to bring up. What did you do when you realized you were getting boiled to death?

I can relate to your neighbor. I'm hoping it is a doctor who determines my mom can not live alone. I obviously don't want her to go through a huge crisis, but I do fear it will take some kind of crisis, and probably a hospital stay before I can get a social worker on board.

The uncertainty and the waiting for a crisis is extremely hard as everyone here knows. But the general consensus seems to be that's what it takes with stubborn, selfish elders. Even my sister told me that yesterday on the phone. Sigh.

Chris, did anyone tell your SIL that she couldn't speak at the funeral? If so how did that go? I'm sorry your DH is hurting. He is lucky to have you by his side as you are a nurturing and comforting soul.

Also:  You say you can’t force your mother to do anything, but that works both ways - she can’t force you to do anything either. Keep telling yourself this when you are being sucked in...

YES, this is exactly what I have realized in the last year. At times I feel cold hearted but then I realize some people (narcs, HER) will willingly and even deliberately suck all the life out of you. Just yesterday I realized this stark comparison. The nurse from my primary care called me to talk about the Zofran and my chronic nausea. Five minutes after we hung up NM was at my door to borrow a pan to make bacon telling me how STARVED and hungry she was, the woman has a huge appetite always. I handed it to her and thought if you only knew- I just got off the phone with the doctors office because I can barely eat because of YOU. I mean.... she is doing better mentally than I am.

It was like an epiphany of some kind. I had this vision of my mom outliving me. And I thought- NO, not going to let that happen.

Piper, hope you are ok too?

My neighbour explained their struggle of 'parent not ok at home anymore'. It was an enormously stressful time. Their stopping point was 'unsafe to live alone' like you said, but they said one of the hardest things was identifying that actual point. Will it be one thing? Or a gradual creep of small things?

Mine has been a very gradual decline. Like the boiling frog in the pot, so slow I didn't know I was heating up. You are in the pot now I think?

Lea, I’m so sorry to hear about your BIL. What a terrible shock! And on top of everything else too. All you can do at times like this is to focus on the absolute priorities each day, and leave everything else. Don’t forget that one of those priorities is to look after yourself and your DH at the moment. My DH is suffering some considerable difficulties with my BIL and SIL, regarding my MIL’s funeral arrangements. All I can do is help and support him daily, with whatever comes up, whilst trying to just keep the rest of our lives ticking over gently.

Shell, your experience certainly sounds like PTSD, and the triggers are obvious: your mother’s lifetime behaviour and the grief/shock/confusion around her death have caused powerful emotional reactions. It’s good you have a therapist - they should be able to really support you right now. I too used cognitive therapy when my dad died, and found it very helpful. It is hard work though - but you get out of it what you put in. Stick with it! It sounds to me like you are struggling with not having been able to have all of this out with your mother when she was alive. Would it help you to write down what you would have liked to say to her? I wrote a “hypothetical letter” that I would never send, to my stepmother to help me deal with the overwhelming negative thoughts and fixations at the time of dad’s death. I could never have had this conversation with her as she would have shouted me down (perhaps a similar response that you would have got from your mother if you’d tried to have this real conversation). About a year later, I found this letter amongst my CBT notes. Re-reading it, I could see how far I’d come, and how much progress I’d made. Remember these are very early days for you, and that when you get overwhelmed, tell yourself you are safe, and in a safe place right now. Keep trying to come back to the present moment.

Piper, your DH is right - this phase with your mum won’t last forever, although I’m sure every day does feel like an eternity. You are right to pull back and do less, for your own health’s sake. You say you can’t force your mother to do anything, but that works both ways - she can’t force you to do anything either. Keep telling yourself this when you are being sucked in...

So, Barb is a snitch! Infinitely better than having NPD though....

I am very behind here. I missed something but hope you are ok Lea?

Barb, your narc story made me laugh. No you are definitely not a narc, but a narc survivor (your ex). But the take away is survivors of narc abuse are very much aware of the pain they cause and the thought of causing pain to your own children is horrifying. Your daughter sounds spunky and fun. I'm glad your meeting went well.

Jodi- no you didn't over-step any bounds, I'll take any advice I can get. I've tried a couple anti-depressants and I couldn't handle the side effects. They all made my nausea so much worse I could barely eat. Cymbalta wasn't one of them though, I never tried that one. To be honest I've been thinking about going back to my psychiatrist again if I can't get my stress under control and revisiting the medication idea again, so I may bring up Cymbalta. I did get the Zofran and it's helping my nausea.

I'm pretty certain that right now I am in the worse phase you can be in as far as dealing with a demented narc parent. My mom is still with it enough that I can't force her to do anything. But her needs are increasing and I keep pulling back and doing the bare minimum. I told my sister yesterday that when she can no longer live alone safely then she will have to go to MC because I REFUSE to do any more than I am doing now.

Last night I was talking to my DH and I think he was trying to give me some kind of reassurance that this stress wasn't going to last forever because he pointed out that my mom has progressed A LOT since 2019 and that he didn't see this dragging out for years and years. He fully supports the idea of my mom going to MC -- when the time comes -- so basically trying to tell me to hang in there. And I sat with that for awhile, and he is right. She is progressing, and even though each week, some days even, feel like an eternity it's really not.

I feel like I've missed a lot of posts lately so I need to catch up. I hope all of you are doing okay, all things considered.

Lea, I am so sorry. How is your DH holding up? My heart is hurting for you both. When it rains, sometimes it pours huh? Does DH have any idea where the daughters are? I can't imagine the shock of getting a call from the coroner. I'm so sorry you went through that, and just the shock of it all.

Please let us know how you are doing. Sending you a huge hug.

Lea, what terrible news! My condolences to your husband and to you.

Sorry for you and your family's loss Lealonnie.

AOI,

Glad you were able to speak privately with the PRN. I will definitely pray for your friend and her child.

Lea,

Geeeez, what a shock about your BIL. I am so sorry.

OMG Lea,

That's the last thing you need!!

I'm so sorry!!

It truly seems when it rains, it pours!

Sending you big ((((hugs))))!😘

Lea,
I know the difference between doing evil things and a evil person. I am just wondering which one is my mother. But your right there really isn't a reason to put a label on her now. She was mentally ill that has become clear and maybe a more healthier way of looking at her and what she has done. My Dr cannot put me on any more meds because I am already on meds and both are small amounts because my body doesn't do well on meds as it is. So it's cognitive therapy for me. Thank you so much for your support & hugs!!


NHWM,
You hit on something...I don't think my mother knew why she did the things she did. I don't even think she knew herself, perhaps she didn't know why she hated me so much! Thank you so much. I wish you peace & joy as well. You deserve it too. Hugs!!



Thank you Barb for the giggle. I needed it!

You gals are so great! I count myself blessed to have a great supportive group!❤

Aoi, good job talking to the PRN outside today. I NEVER talk to the docs in front of NM, otherwise nothing would ever get accomplished. All NM does is lie like a rug. In fact, today, she called to tell me her doctor came by and told her she doesn't belong in the MC but back in her old apartment at the regular ALF across the parking lot where she used to live 2 yrs ago. Uh huh. Yeah.

I will pray for your pregnant friend that she finishes out her pregnancy and has a healthy baby.

I was grocery shopping at Wal-Mart today and my phone rang. It was a local government official asking if I knew my husband (he called him by his given name)? I'm like whaaat? He wanted to speak to him but didn't have his phone number. I asked him what the call was all about and then he said he was with the Coroner's office! My brother in law apparently collapsed in the parking lot of another Wal-Mart and was found unresponsive......dead, in other words! I have no idea why MY phone number was in my BILs phone? Ugh. I was shocked. He was 70. I had to then call DH with the news. He's going over to his brothers place tomorrow to pack it up and some other family members will help him. Then we have to arrange for the cremation after an autopsy is performed. Nobody knows where the 2 daughters are.....they went no contact years ago, which further complicates the situation and holds up releasing the body for 10 days. A mess, really. Anyway, I have a headache tonight after a long day.

Shell,

I am so sorry that you are having a tough time. It’s a tough situation. It takes time to adjust.

The only person that can truly answer for your mom’s behavior is your mom. I have unanswered questions too. I have seen where some people, don’t know themselves why they do what they do.

I hope you start to feel better soon. Wishing you all the peace and joy that you deserve.

Barb, better to be unhip than to have NPD, huh? 🤣

Shell, I'm so sorry you're going thru PTSD now, ugh. I'm sure your therapist is right. What's the difference between being an evil person and doing evil things? A decent person doesn't do evil things, right? I'm not sure it's important to put a label on your mother now though. You know she did mean and rotten things to you your whole life, that's a fact. She was mentally ill. That's a better name to put to her, I think, than "evil".
If the dreams don't stop, and you have symptoms of ptsd, go to your regular doctor and ask for meds. I had bad PTSD in 2000 after I found my birth family and could not function. Paxil helped me tremendously. Don't wait a long time like I did.....nip it in the bud quickly before things get really bad. I could not bear noise. My startle reflex was thru the roof and I jumped at the slightest sound, and had to wear earplugs in the house! It was awful. I couldn't sleep or eat....all I did was cry and think about dying. Those were a few of my symptoms that Paxil took away, thank God.

Sending you a big hug dear Shell.

Barb,

Hahaha! My daughters always tell me that I am ‘out of the loop!’

I am stopping in to give you all a laugh at my expense.

I had a meeting today with one of my adult daughters and HER daughter's preschool director; GD is being evaluated for special services and we were doing a pre-pre-meeting to discuss results and our strategy to get GD what she needs.

The world of preschool education is where I spent 23 of the 28 years of my career; the director and I talked shop, dropped names and I promised to pass on some information about a poor performing program to the "right people".

My daughter said "Mom, you are such a narc!". She and the director laughed.

I mulled that over this afternoon. I texted her later "did you mean that? Do you really think I have NPD?"

She texted back "Mom, a narc is a narcotics informant...a snitch. Geez, you are SO unhip".

Oy. I really had a moment there.

I miss talking to my dad too. He was great at giving advice & I really could use it now!

I was doing so well & now I feel like I am emotionally spinning out of control. The last 2 nights I have been jumping out of a dead sleep. I wake up & I am standing...afraid & confuse! My therapist said that I am suffering from PTSD. I tell myself that I am safe and that my NM can't hurt me in any way. She is dead then I go to her room to check to see that she is not there! What is happening to me & why now? I probably won't sleep much tonight either. My SO works nights, so I am home alone, so no comfort there!

My therapist said something today that keeps playing in my head...that my NM is evil because all the emotional, physical, psychological, verbal abuse that she did to me. I don't know what to think! Was my NM an evil person or did she just do evil things?

Thanks for reading!!

Aoi,
Kudos!!!

I pray that you finally get someone to see what you already know!
Praying for your friend and her baby.🙏🙏🙏

EP,

I hope I'm not over stepping, but have you tried an antidepressant?
I have been on Cymbalta since January and it's helped me tremendously!😘

Lea,

There are no words to tell you how I feel for your current situation!!
All I can say is that we're all here for you!!
Hang in there!!
(((Hugs)))

bngbng,

Welcome!!

It's not selfish, it's survival!

My parents had been divorced for 40 years. I didn't really have a relationship with my Dad for years because of my NMs constant flood of poison about him(I now know better).

I often wish that my NM was gone and my Dad was still here!
I miss talking to him and I miss his advice!

You're not alone!
This is a wonderful place to unload!!

(((Hugs)))