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paul: Ooh, that's rich - dragging him to the loo. Umm - not so much.
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Paul,

Sorry your meal with dad was a disappointment but I know you weren’t surprised by his behavior.

Best wishes for the upcoming new year.
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Oh boy! Paul, your dad is a real character. I bet you two got stares from other diners. I see several options to deal with his acting out. One, you stop taking him to restaurants and let him be, or you can grin and bear and put up with him for one boxing day a year, or another option is to take him some place else where he can't embarrass you, or you can bring take-outs to him and put on a good movie.

Have a good new year. Don't let him ruin it.
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And just WHO helps him walk to & at the toilet at home eh??? A retro crochet toilet roll holder doll maybe?

Hmmm
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Sorry that toilet thing just makes me SO angry for you!

But you've seen it now... How far the slippery slope of his needs will go. (All the way baby!)

I'm actually quite surprised but glad that went straight to toileting 'I need help'. It will help to make your future plans.

The reason it irks me so bad is I delt with that slippery slope for 12 long months with my sister. THAT was #1 reason I quit talking her anywhere (& the mess..)

Supervised walking TO the toilet slowly became 'I need help' opening doors became 'I need help' fixing my clothing to 'I need help' with wiping.
"Just do the best you can" was my answer.

I understand her real needs but DO NOT have to put up with *The Act*. So I kept reducing my contact bit by bit. It if helps you I broke it down;

5. Normal social visits anywhere - including my house
4. Public outing - but NOT my house.
3 Limited outing. Shorter cafes/resturant visit. Toilets right there.
2. Her house only.
1. No contact

I have told her in a soft way.. oh that"s a bit hard to do... but mostly I just have to engineer things & be busy busy busy. Currently down to 2. Her house only, except Xmas outing tomorrow. I am dreading it. (If anyone has a good slogan to why I can't even walk her to the toilet area - let me know!!)

Your Dad was level 5 & 4 last year. This Boxing Day demoted to level 3. Depends on his behaviour but level 2 is next!
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Beatty - exactly. He walks 10 yards to his stairs at home, gets on chair lift to upstairs for toilet. When he said he needed help getting undressed for bathroom I did say "what is this a different toilet than you've got at home then?"

I was so mad. I don't want to take him out for a display of "Look how ill I am honest". Does he even realise that the worse he acts the less inclined Im going to be to have contact with him?

He really is a disgrace at times. Hes like a baby.

Yep. Going to next level.
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Beatty: Not sure if you're British, but if you are - here is your slogan:
No can do
Not trottin' you to the loo
In your Tu-Tu
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NEXT LEVEL!!! YEAH!!!!
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Wtalking to the toilet... No dad you have to use it or loose it. That is actually a fact. Elderly should be active for as long as possible. Dont worry dad I'll hear the crash if you fall. Haha. Then dont move from your seat. Hehe
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Let's celebrate! 12 months til next Boxing Day! Happy to raise a toast Paul!

Level 3 went ok (just) as youngest sis was closest & took on walking to loo duty. When I asked if she was getting a taxi home, she didn't know - was waiting for someone to offer a ride. . I copied quite a whiff of something I did not want in my car seat... but as my son felt Ill we left quick smart - have just escaped by train. Ha ha!

I LOVE that *no can do... Tu-Tu*. I am singing it now 😁
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Beatty: LOL - I just added to "Tu-Tu" at the end to make it funny. Actually - and true story here - my late disabled cousin had used the words when she wrote her book and giving a spin on the words, called it "Tu-Tu Much,"
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As Bugs would say 'What a Maroon.'

"He also decided to make sure I knew how ill he was. Had to practically drag/carry him to the bathroom 10 yards away. Then he said I needed to help him go to the bathroom! No way."

IF he is THAT bad, he needs a walker and to hire help/move to AL. (but we ALL know he isn't - too bad whatever ails him doesn't affect his mouth.)

"He walked half a mile across a busy road this week to get his hair cut. Yet I'm dragging him 10 yards across a restaurant....."

IF he can do this, clearly the restaurant bathroom issue was an act...

"He walks 10 yards to his stairs at home, gets on chair lift to upstairs for toilet."

Again, IF he can do this, the restaurant bathroom issue was an act...

" When he said he needed help getting undressed for bathroom I did say "what is this a different toilet than you've got at home then?""

Obviously this IS a different toilet.... ACT II
(also, if he needs help undressing/dressing to use the loo, how in hell did he get dressed to go out to eat?!?!?!?!)

"I was so mad. I don't want to take him out for a display of "Look how ill I am honest". Does he even realise that the worse he acts the less inclined Im going to be to have contact with him?"

Nope, he doesn't realise or just doesn't care, so just follow that inclination, and no contact. Most likely this has worked for him, in the past, with whoever, so he just keeps at it, like a kid will pester pester pester PESTER you until you give in (usually this follows after having given in to them at one time - my kids learned quickly not to try this and I didn't have to get angry or raise my voice or hand!!! They was smarter than the aaaaverage Bear!)

I did try lookup to see if you could buy a replica Razzie Award [The Golden Raspberry Awards (also known in short terms as Razzies and Razzie Awards) is a parody award show honoring the worst of cinematic under-achievements.] but haven't found one yet. Perhaps you could just buy the ugliest trophy you could find and have his name etched on the placard, giving him props for the worst act and sequels ever! Don't hand deliver it, send it via post, although it would be great to see the look on his face when he opened the package...
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I just don't get it sometimes. He moans he never sees me, I take him out and he moans about the food. And he moans its taking too long - why?? As I said hes going home after surely he would want to spend more time with me?

Does he forget that he told me he walked to get his haircut last week? Then pretends he can't walk 10 yards. I'm not stupid. And when he was trying to play up saying "wheres the toilet?" (he'd been once) - it hasn't moved!

Think probably the worse is when you tell him something and he carries on as he wants. We went to Harvester (people in the uk will know it!). Basically, you get a free salad from a serve yourself salad bar as part of the meal. So, Dad doesnt want the salad, so I said "look its included just dont have it then". But NO he didnt believe me hes shouting at the waiter that HE DOESNT WANT A SALAD AND HES NOT PAYING FOR SOMETHING HE DOESNT WANT. Jeez - it was embarrassing. Why wont he listen I told him!

And don't get me started on dessert. I TOLD HIM is was a set menu I booked. Three courses. I was less than impressed to get a lecture telling me "I didn't need that desert because I need to lose weight" and "I've got more money than sense paying for desert in here" OMG.

I'm still traumatised!!!

To be honest this behaviour was what I had when he came to out house. He'd shuffle across the living room, make demands, moan he was so ill and wasn't sure he could eat anything (then stuff LOADS of food!). EXACT SAME BEHAVIOUR. And my family instead of the waiter got his rudeness.
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Paul,

It seems like no matter what you do he won’t be satisfied. It’s so sad. I don’t think he realizes that his behavior is bothersome to others. I have seen this so many times in certain people.

My husband’s grandmother constantly blamed others and was also an embarrassment to take to a restaurant. Nothing pleased her, ever. Yet, when she saw others becoming upset due to her absurd behavior she didn’t ever feel like she was at fault. She was completely oblivious to how she acted.

I’m sorry you have had to endure his disturbing behavior. Don’t feel badly if you pull away from him. You have been very generous to him. If you need a break please take time for yourself. He will manage.

Take care, Paul.
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NeedHelp - After this I have had it. I thought it would be a nice meal out - it turned into a nightmare.

He just causes me so much stress. I honestly, don't think he knows what hes like and the grief he causes. Even when he does notice he'll say "well I'm old" as if that makes ANY behaviour ok.

Honestly now, I think I could go months without seeing him. Every time I have to visit or phone him I get a sense of dread. I KNOW hes going to do or say something stupid.

At the moment, I'm beginning to see that EVERY SINGLE THING is about him at the moment. He seems to not care about one single person other than himself. All he needs from me is to be fit to serve him....

Hes latched onto "haven't seen my wife for ages" again now. i.e She hasn't paid what he deems to be the necessary "homage" to him. He did this a few months ago. Its NEVER going to happen EVER.

My wife is a big girl and she can make her own decisions and he doesnt like it. (In all honesty, if roles were revered and this were her mother I'd be the same if not worse!).
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I haven't read all the comments here, but this sounds like either mental illness or dementia, or a mixture of both. Has he been evaluated?
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Paul,

I love that you respect your wife. You’re absolutely correct in saying that it’s her choice if she wishes to see him. Apparently, she is smart and isn’t going to get involved in his mess. I don’t blame her.

Take a break from him, Paul. You don’t need the stress of dealing with his foolishness. I agree that just because he is old does not give him an excuse to destroy your peace.
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I had to take my father twice to the bathroom on Christmas. I had to literally stand behind him to pull up his pants and get him all buckled up. That is my hill to die on. I am not toileting an old man. He spent most of the day very confused. I’m no longer sure taking him out is a treat or just torture. The only thing he seemed to enjoy was the home cooking.

Back when my my father was able to go out he would embarrass me at restaurants too. Loudly announce he had a bowel movement or keep lifting his pant leg to look at his catheter bag full of pee. In front of other diners. Mortifying doesn’t begin to cover it
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Ikdrymom,

Geeeez, reminds me of my husband’s grandma. I would take her to a nice restaurant here in uptown New Orleans and foolishly asked her how she was feeling. Dumb question for me to ask!

She proceeds to speak loudly about being constipated, calling it, “tightness of the stool!” I just sat there speechless! I wanted to crawl under the table.
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Maybe other diners say "look at that sweet son/daughter taking that old gal/guy out. Aren't they so lovely" 😊

My Xmas wasn't so bad then... not *tightness of the stool* LOL ... more *bear tracks*.... & how I wish there was a catheter bag...

(*brown bear is knocking at the back door* as my Canadian friend used to say 🐻)
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Time to curtail the outings. Just dont do it. When he asks tell him you dont want to be out with him and his rude behavior. Next year a 2 min phone call. No visit.
Maybe you should look into carers to visit him. When he complains he gets no visit from anyone. Your brother can pick up the slack.
You gotta curtail this. He shouldnt be able to get your blood pressure up. It's not good for your health/stress.
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Beatty,

My husband’s grandma broke the mold! She was one of a kind. She spoke very loudly, always screaming at the top of her lungs.

Let me make you giggle a bit more. I’m laughing as I type this remembering how crazy she was. This was a quaint upscale restaurant. So it was an intimate space. The table right next to us had just been served his lovely meal when she blurted out, “I feel just awful! I have tightness of the stool!”

Hahaha 😂 Let me tell you, the poor man’s expression on his face went from a joyful smile, with his fork in his hand anticipating a delicious first bite, to a look a pure disgust, where he slowly placed his fork down on the table. He lost his appetite! I felt awful for him.
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Ha ha ha I am laughing my head off right now - THANKS! (But so sorry you had to live it!).
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Beatty,

Too bad that my husband’s grandma is dead. She would have made a perfect match for Paul’s dad! Hahaha 😂
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KittyBee- Long story. I've tried many times to speak to his GP - they have categorically said there are no signs of any of this.
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NeedHelp - My dear wife is not the calmest person in the world lol but I do think back of what she put up with and cringe.

Yeh up to her. Shes an adult. Hes my Dad not hers. He doesnt deserve any favours from her so its up to her.
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Beatty - Mrs Brown is at the window :-)
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Yes I won't be rushing to take him out in public again. I just don't get why he can't behave? Its as if he doesn't care.

His idea that the service was too slow is nuts. It was like 1pm - he was going nowhere later, why on earth did he feel the need to be rude to the waiter because he thought it was slow? I just do not get it.

Thing is it wasn't slow - it was normal. And the salad thing - Jeez I've been to this restaurant chain many times, if you don't know how it works then listen to me. Why on earth he felt the need to have a go about the salad when I told him it was included in the cost I'll never know.
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I remember a few years ago. Like I said we go to watch cricket.....
We were sat there. Not a huge crowd maybe 30 people in this section but packed on benches....

Whenever I'm out with Dad he does not miss a thing. (pity he doesn't pay attention more to what hes doing!). If you go to buy something he will notice. If you go to the bathroom he will keep count - honestly. Having a stomach upset with Dad around is no fun at all.

Anyway, so I went to the bathroom. An hour later I went again - not that bad. So Dad pipes up (in his usual double volume voice) "are you ok?". (Remember theres 30 people within 10 yards here). I whisper "yes no problem" but he won't let it go. "Are you sure?" I shush him but hes off now. At the top of his voice "BUT YOU'VE BEEN TO THE BATHROOM TWICE NOW IN THE LAST HOUR - ARE YOU OK?".

Honestly, 20 people turned around to look at me......

I remember having a huge argument with him after we left saying he can ask once, but if I say I'm ok, there is no need to badger me and ask again. And I certainly do not want a loud conversation about it. He didnt think (and to this day still does not) he'd done anything wrong "I was concerned about you".
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That is one part of the narcissist's repertoire. Humiliation. I know that well. As sons and daughters of narcissists we get thr full force of their games. Humiliation is a big one.
My mom was in the hospital. I was taking care of her dog. My mom wanted to start a fight with me about getting more dog food. I had enough for sev days. I had things to do, and said I'll get it before it runs out. Half a big bag left. The narc she was kept insisting I get it right after I leave. She was so loud the woman in the next bed was shocked and staring. The nurse walks in and wants to know what the commotion is about. My mom proceeds to tell her she has to leave immediately bc I wasnt feeding or watering her dog. She has to go home. The nurse who didnt hear the conversation at all, proceeds to tell me how to feed and water a dog daily. And was really concerned the dog was about to die from lack of water & food.
Narcs love to control and humiliating you is a perk of having a child. It's a fun past time. Even if they are grown. I should have got up and walked out of the room and not discussed it with her. But there I was, explaining to a complete stranger I know dogs require access to fresh water and food daily, and the dog was of a normal weight and wasnt starving or dying. All the while the nurse looking at me like she wasnt sure she believed me. All because I wouldnt drop everything and get more food. The dog had at least 3 days of food left. 2 meals a day.
So I feel your pain. I know it well.
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