It's been a hard week....

Paul, what I hear your father saying is "I need help here 2 or 3 times a week".

That's not what he SAID but it's what he NEEDS at least in his head.

Your father is old and has a legitimate need for a bit of looking after. YOU can't personally provide it.

Use this visit to make a list with him about what needs doing how often. Then do some research about what sorts of aid he is eligible for. (And here, you are going say " But he won't pay for help").

When the list is finished you say "gee Dad, this is a whole lot of "doing" that you need. I can't possibly do all this myself. My job and my family are my first responsibilities. What are some of the ways you can get your needs met?"

Have a discussion, no an argument. Role play this with your wife, or with the mirror. Then reverse it and you BE him. You may discover some of his fear and anxiety by doing this.

Bring up the idea of a facility. Counter his arguments about getting "put away" with the idea of a trial run at one. Or at least a visit for a day out. "Don't you like having things done for you, Dad?"

How does one get a "needs assessment" in Wales? You know, a social worker and nurse to assess what he needs? When it happens, make sure you are there so that he doesn't simply say " oh, my son can do that".

On saying "no" without anger? It takes practice. Start practicing not letting him wind you up. Come up with a plan instead of getting angry.

Barb,

I tried the list thing. Listed needs etc. Proved to him that he was coping pretty well and there was nothing that couldnt be solved. Thought I'd got throught but no, a few days later back to the same.

It all boils down to that its either me or my brother that has to do things....

Hes had a few needs assessments. Got converted shower, stair lift etc. Every time they basically report back that he can cope fine by himself.

Which he can. Its all about his attitude.

Tried the home thing as well. NO WAY is the answer. Won't even think about it. Then tells me he'd rather be dead than go into a home.

margaret - I am beginning how far down his list of priorities I come at the moment. I'm a long way down I think.

Paul, do you see just how alike you and your dad are?

We offer techniques and suggestions and you always say you've tried them before and you know they won't work.

You don't get that you might be able to wear him down over time, or that changing your technique or wording, or using his cousin as a shill, might cause a shift in attitude.

You give little credence to the fact that all of us have been through this with stubborn elderly parents and that some of us have had YEARS of therapy.

Some of us are actually therapists.

Paul....HE isn't going to change. I'm sorry that you are in mental anguish over the fact that you are so low on your dad's list of priorities. That happens even with parents who DON'T have your dad's mental health issues; as we age, our universe becomes smaller and we care less about the needs of others. Just as small children are egocentric, so are elders, it seems.

Paul, your anguish has been evident from the start. We are all trying to help, but at least for me, your defeatist and rigid thinking is telling me that you need better help than we can give.

I wish you well.

These are rather mixed messages:

"You don't get that you might be able to wear him down over time, or that changing your technique or wording, or using his cousin as a shill, might cause a shift in attitude."

yet a few sentences later:

"Paul....HE isn't going to change."

You suggest trying to wear him down, and then state he isn't going to change. Which is it? Clearly, for me, Door #2. He is NOT going to change. I wouldn't even encourage trying to "wear him down" - it will only be an exercise in futility and frustration.

I don't recall his age, but think it's in his 80s? You said "Your father is old and has a legitimate need for a bit of looking after." Why? He lives alone and gets by without help, sometimes for several WEEKS when Paul is away. He's pulled the "ill" game and called the doctor, getting some unnecessary medication just so he can say SEE? I WAS ill! Then he promptly goes to the betting shop. He doesn't sound nearly as needy as he or you make him out to be!

My mother was just over 90 and still lived alone before I felt we needed to move her (we had already taken away the car), but in her case it was dementia that made that necessary. Without the dementia, she might have been able to live there a few more years, ALONE! She had NO in-home help. Without the car, someone needed to help with supplies, but she was doing great until the big D made an entrance. Even then, after move to MC, she took care of all her needs, except food, laundry, and cleaning the room, for several years. She's refusing to stand/walk now, so needs physical help, but she's also now 97! This man is just demanding. Old? Sure, but he isn't ancient by today's standards and certainly doesn't sound that decrepit! A lot of his physical "need" may just be a show for all we know.

I generally only went every 2 weeks to take her shopping or deliver other needed items AFTER we took the car away. It was almost 1.5 hours each way, so that was the plan I had to go with, before the dementia made it necessary to move her. She was THANKFUL for what I could do and NEVER demanded I be there even once/week, much less 2-3 times! She even had rotator cuff surgery in her 80s. Overnight stay in hospital, back home ALONE, worked with PT at home and we didn't help AT ALL. This man lives in an area where he can use his damn scooter to get to shops and take care of things himself and has all those nice additions Paul saw to (shr/stairlift.) Mom didn't have those luxuries! It is ALL about control. He doesn't NEED help, he WANTS to be in control and demand Paul be there. Lonely? Likely. But it isn't our job to keep them happy or from being lonely. Even when Paul does go, it doesn't change anything, not even while he is there! If we have a good relationship with someone, and enjoy each other's company, we'd be happy to make more time and be together. Who wants to be with an old piss-ant? Even the times Paul HAS taken him out to eat or off to a game, grumble, moan, complain, won't spare a coin to buy anything, won't wear briefs just in case - I wouldn't want to be there either!

"He sounds like he would do well in something like USA Independent Living or Assisted Living. You need to check the options around you."

He certainly does, HOWEVER, he is dead set against the idea of a "home" and I don't think the Queen could get him to move! IF he's been determined competent (which he has) and they've assessed him as being able to meet his own needs (with the additions Paul has facilitated), then there is NO way to MAKE this move happen. Period. IF/WHEN he develops dementia or has a serious medical problem/fall, THEN and ONLY then will this move ever possibly happen. I see no point in beating this poor horse any more. It IS dead and is about the consistency of pulp now. A move ISN'T going to happen or even be discussed/considered. Why stress yourself more trying to change the mind of someone who you yourself said isn't going to change?

Although it was said that you are like your dad, I don't see it. This was in reference to brushing off suggestions. YOU are sensitive to others needs and what they think, he isn't. You try to compromise or make suggestions, he is a cement block that is unmoving. You try to engage him in "fun" activities outside his home, he makes the whole experience unpleasant.

I am sure you HAVE tried some of the suggestions, some even before anyone here made them and KNOW what the result was - we aren't there, YOU are, so you have to go with what you know works or doesn't work (mostly doesn't work!)

"So then he wants to know when I'm visiting. OK. Wednesday night Dad. OK. Sorted methinks."

On some level you knew it wasn't sorted out, but perhaps you have gotten to the point where you didn't actually anticipate anything to follow up. If so, THAT is an improvement! Anticipating his crap is what sometimes irks you the most, excluding the actual demands, even before you talk to him. His demands take top billing!

So, he then says "Yes, you need to visit me AT LEAST 2-3 times a week".

My reply would be "Eh? What did you say? Visit you in 3 weeks? Ok then, see you in 3 weeks Dad!" and hang up. Don't go Wed. Avoid answering the phone. When you do, play dumb some more. Turn his words around, just as he does to you.

You can talk and explain until you are blue in the face. He hears you, but he isn't actually listening, at least not enough to process that you aren't going to comply, and really doesn't care about anything going on in your life, only thinking of himself and what he wants. The one thing I agree with that was said is he will NOT change. I would have stopped trying to explain already. Waste of breath! You specified a visit and he pushed back, hard. Push back harder! Play stupid. Pretend you didn't hear or understand. Two can play the game, but DON'T play the game HIS way. Use his tactics to your advantage. You will have to be quick on your feet to accomplish this. It likely goes against your natural being, but fibbing to mom did for me too, however it was necessary.

Clearly he isn't really listening. Just enough to say yes, yes, yes, but dismisses it immediately and goes back to his "game." YOU: "Oh, visit you in 3 weeks?Great! See you then! Ta-ta"

MAKE and STICK to your OWN plans, what YOU feel is sufficient. Don't say you will go this Wednesday because he's demanding to know WHEN. You should have a planned schedule and stick to it. If he complains it isn't enough or demands more, give him less. Giving in is only going to reinforce his behavior. Most likely he will never stop trying, so the focus has to be on YOU blocking it out.

You were painted as being like him. Honestly I don't think so, but perhaps you NEED to be like him! He demands you be there 2-3 times/week? Yes, yes, yes dad, sure thing! Just because you say it doesn't mean you have to do it! Just like for him, make it in one ear and out the other. He calls, just repeat "You said to come in 3 weeks! I'll be there then."

As for "Does not give a stuff about me obviously."

It's more like he doesn't understand what this does to you, and certainly doesn't care how his demands impact others - it's obvious to others, but not to him. He is selfish in only thinking of himself and what he wants. Some people can't put themselves in others shoes and see things from the other side! He is one of those. He is also small-minded in that he can't even fill his retirement days with doing different interesting things or learning something new!

If you've truly "had it now", stick to a schedule of YOUR making, DON'T agree to go this Wed because he is begging, play stupid/hard of hearing and use his words against him. Would love to be a fly on the wall if you can pull off that "Oh, you want me to come in 3 weeks! Ok, see you then!" I can only imagine the shock on his face and sputtering trying to correct it - keep playing dumb and repeating "You said come in 3 weeks."

Barb - thanks I know you mean well. I have tried a lot of these things - gets nowhere.

Im at the point where I no longer have the energy so yes, you're probably right I do need further help.

disgusted - I think you're spot on. Completely different to your mother - Dad has got it all and still wont be happy.

Over the years there have been so many times hes treated me badly. I've lost track now. Does he know this? Like you said I dont think though - hes so damn obsessed with ME ME ME that he doesnt see anything else at all.

The way he said that last week (the 2-3 times thing) was as if he had a right to do this. I could not believe it.

Im visiting tomorrow now. Can guarantee he'll want shopping done. (yeh I know went 5 weeks then suddenly he'll need stuff twice in 2 weeks).

Can guarantee he will assume I'm visiting the weekend too. Or will want detailed hour by hour of what I'm doing the weekend.

"Can guarantee he will assume I'm visiting the weekend too. Or will want detailed hour by hour of what I'm doing the weekend."

Anticipating again... tsk tsk tsk...

Let him assume all he wants. He says anything about the weekend, it doesn't even require a response, just a mute look.

If you have to say anything, be prepared for a simple, non-angry No to the weekend if he brings it up.

As for what your hour by hour doings are going to be, NONYA, as in none of your business. Either just a mute look, or if you really feel the need to respond, it's "My dance card is full, sorry. Nope, I don't have to provide details, it is my life and my doings. I'm busy, see you on DD-MON-YR."

Hard as it is to hold in that desire to explode, you know it won't change anything and it'll just work you up! The blank mute no response is likely the best one. Deep breath, relax as best you can, let that "feeling" pass through you. Then there's nothing he can twist around, nothing he can argue with. He continues on anyway, then a simple "Sorry, time to go." and leave.

disgusted - yep its going to be difficult but I think hes pushed me into a corner now.....

Last nights visit - give myself 6.5/10 :-)

After about 20 mins,

Dad: "Im so depressed I'm stuck in, I've had no fresh air, can you visit this weekend and take me out for a ride in the car?"
Me: "Sorry I'm busy with the kids"
Dad: "Can't you bring X (my youngest) with you?" (This is pretty rich because he has no interest in my kids at all and we've had this conversation twice now how its boring for a 7 year old)
Me: "No Dad we're doing something"
Dad: "But I'm SO DEPRESSED"
Me: "We've had this conversation, you need to speak to your doctor maybe"
Dad: "No no no - I've spoken to a few of my friends and they're the same we're all stuck in"
Me: "Problem sorted - if they;re the same why not all go out somewhere togetether?"
Dad: <Silence>
Dad: "So what about weekends when you're wife doesnt work? You can take me out then" (She works 6 out of 8 weekends)
Me: "Dad shes not going be impressed if the one weekend shes not working, I leave her with the kids and spend the day with you"
Dad: <Silence>
Dad: "OK so you're coming in the week instead"
Me: "I will"
Dad: "OK at least its going to be every week"
Me: "We'll see" (yes I should have said no!!!!)
Dad: "Im scared to ask you these things now" (GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Me: <Silence>

Hopefully, progress here!

Keep going with it Paul. NO, I’m NOT coming every week. I will see you when I’m able to. I’ll have to check my schedule and see when I can come but it WONT be every week!!

You did well I think Paul.

The constant pressure he produces. I can it feel it from here ☹️. Blimey.

I agree with all Disgustedtoo said. Great summary! I think Dad DOES hear you when you say your are busy/with kids/with wife/etc - that's what the silence was about. A little split second where he heard you. But for whatever reason his brain's hardwiring is set to ego mode & it gets dismissed & does not ever change him or his ways.

I think building your own defences to the pressure is all you can do. So don't tell him too much. Be vague. Keep up with the planned visit on X day. But always remember that YOU are in charge of your calendar. Never let him rule it.

That's his game. Dictating when you will visit, then increase & increase until you just move in & become his slave! OK laugh!!! But have you read post after post of people who have done this? Some even left their homes, spouses or work (mostly retired though) are massively stuck & write here for help.

You have not succumbed, nor will you. Boundaries are your defence.

I had this pressure, in a diverted way.. you have to visit your sister, drive her, pay her bills, food, arrange maintenance, cleaning, cooking, washing. On & on & on. No. Actually all of that is HER life. I have my own life.

Dad it's time you sorted out some of your 'jobs' that are getting hard. I won't be shopping for you anymore. Or paying your bills. Just visiting.

Ok so you don't want to go that far. I think you are ok to do those things. But what IS your line in the sand?

elaine - yeh i got a bit caught out on the every week thing....

Yeh the "Im scared to ask you" rang a bell with me.....

I was thinking. My Mother-in-law asks things. OK shes a bit of a PITA sometimes and can try it on a little but not in the same league as Dad.

So the differences. She might ask my wife will say sorry can't do and that'll be it. Wife might suggest an alternative but that'll be it.

Dad, on the other hand, will plead for me to do something. I'll tell him no cant do. I'll give him reasons and he won't give in. He'll do something lie say "can't you fit me in", "can you make an effort for me", or "surely you're family will understand".
His classic was when he was in hospital one xmas day and he wanted me there at 9am. I said no, the kids are opening their presents I'll be in a little later to see you. "Well there'll be other xmases for the kids". Nice!!!

Three times now hes said "but you can bring daughter with you". Three times now I've said "No its boring for her so I cant bring her".

So he doesn't "just ask". He badgers, pleads and expects to get his way.

I can hear him on the phone now, to whatever authorities you report elder abuse to in Wales.

"I'm afraid of my son; he bullies me".

I think perhaps I would make a "prophylactic phone call" to them and say that he's having more trouble than in the past getting out, getting his shopping done.

Tell them that he won't listen to any of YOUR suggestions, can they have a go at it?

This whole exchange is hopeful! Some minor tweaking needed, but standing tall behind that wall, hopefully there will be even more progress in the future! There will likely be setbacks now and then, but don't let that deter you or make you feel like you are losing.

"Me: "We'll see" (yes I should have said no!!!!)
Dad: "Im scared to ask you these things now" (GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Me: <Silence>"

I think the "We'll see" is almost as good as no. As with fibs to those with dementia, it leaves the door open (hope) for them, but you know it means NO. Given that he didn't push, but rather said he's afraid to ask... STICK with it! This may be a crack in the veneer!

Me: "Sorry I'm busy with the kids"
Ah, this is where you lost some points off that "10"! Keep it to "Sorry I'm busy."

"Me: "Problem sorted - if they;re the same why not all go out somewhere togetether?"
Dad: <Silence>"

Good push back on the "DEPRESSED"! Both for suggesting the doc and for him to deal with his own issues! It's also a good sign that he didn't have an immediate come back for that! Clearly if ALL his friends are "depressed" by the circumstances, your dad isn't unique. Bet you could hear the wheels grinding in his head during that moment of silence! Silence again after your response to asking you to ditch your wife on the weekends she is home!

"Dad: "OK so you're coming in the week instead"
Me: "I will""

Good commit but non-committal - clearly he saw this as his chance, but his attempt was met with the vague answer (We'll see.)

Beatty says "Be vague." "We'll see" is vague. It isn't a guarantee and perhaps not as hard a stop as NO, so maybe he sees that as a possibility. Of course it isn't, but he doesn't know that! Be prepared though. Despite his difficulties and silences, he will try again later. Stick with what worked - vague answers, no mention of reasons for being busy, silence (it is golden, but sometimes as quiet as a silence is, it speaks volumes!)

Barb says:
"I can hear him on the phone now, to whatever authorities you report elder abuse to in Wales.

"I'm afraid of my son; he bullies me"."

This might actually work out in Paul's favor! If they think it is true, Paul would likely be restricted or not allowed to have contact at all! Woo Hoo! Make the call dad!

As for dragging your daughter along, per his suggestion - not only is it boring for her, but in past discussions you've talked about how he can't stand having the kids around, whether you visited him or he was at your place. Desperation... When is the last time he's even considered this an option?? He's running out of steam, excuses, ways around your WALL. Nope, not happening.

All told, I think this visit and discussion can be viewed positively for you! He's having trouble finding ways to coerce you, excuses to make you feel bad, etc. The moments of silence from him are telling, and those from you are what you need to continue doing, practice and excel in! It won't end that easily - be prepared to follow the same methods again. He will have some time to regroup, think about ways to push, but your wall is growing stronger by the day!

I LOVE the Silence from you at the end.... JUST what you needed to do! Internally "GOOD!!!!", and that feeling is good for you too! His usual responses wind you up, this one didn't. Maybe even started a warm little glow inside... He's clutching now, didn't even use some of his usual blather. He just might be figuring out that pushing too hard IS pushing you away, esp when he says he is afraid to ask. Yup. Keep it up!

Great point, Disgusted, about if "dad" called to say he's being bullied by his son.

I still think that it might be wise to set social services on dad's case again.

To clarify my seemingly contradictory "dad won't change" and "wear him down"..

To use Beatty's family as an example, THEY haven't changed. They still ask Beatty to do stuff.

But Beatty (supported by doctors, SWs and therapists) says "nope, thats not my job; here are the resources you need". S/he doesnt get angry or make excuses, but has changed the conversation.

By not participating in it.

Paul, I understand your dad badgers you. Have you considered simply getting up and leaving EVERY time he starts that?

"We'll see". Love love love it.

My Mum used it a lot with us kids. Wanna go to the pool! The beach! Get icecream! 'We'll see'. I was probably 5 & knew this meant no, but it wasn't a proper no (kept a little hope there) but it did stop the badgering.

I've used it a few times with Mother now - the look on Mother's face 🤣🤣🤣.

Barb, thanks for the kind words. Makes me feel I have really accomplished a lot these past years.

I tried & tried alone but did need the skills of the professionals to get a few more 'tools' in the toolbox, as they say. When I sought help I think I said I my goal was to 'float peacefully along' instead of clutching & drowning. But deep down I probably still thought I could change the direction. Like wanting to change the waves in the sea. Not going to happen.

I have given that up now. Given up any thought of changing them. And am actually floating along!!

So it's possible. I want to give Paul hope.

Beatty, that was totally my point; that sometimes you need the affirmation of the professionals to tell you that you are doing the "right thing" when your parent and all of the relatives are saying "but can't you just..."

You need consensual validation, and not just from us folks on the internet.

Perfect Beatty!!! We’ll see!! That’s brilliant!! My mother used that all the time on me and always meant no. I’m going to start saying it to my mother. Paul, you say that to your father , we’ll see.

Disgustedtoo, you mentioned we’ll see also. It is brilliant!! I am using it tomorrow when I see my mother tomorrow for her birthday!!

Enjoy the birthday Elaine 😀

I hope to hear if you try it out soon too Paul 😁

Thx Disgustedtoo for reviving it!

Some time ago I related how I dealt with the kids asking (pestering) about getting candy when we were at the grocery store. My version was "I'll think about it." It really is the equivalent to "We'll see.", which is mom-speak for DON'T BOTHER ME! At least it was for me (it was NOT a definite no, as you'll see here.)

First time was in the 2nd aisle. I wasn't really even thinking, I just replied with that to keep myself focused on shopping to get it done and go home! 3rd aisle they asked again. Now it was "If you ask me again, the answer is NO." THAT was not just a reflex, that was the line in the sand. Don't cross it.

This still left the possibility - the hope, maybe, just maybe... My kids are a bit sharper than Paul's dad! Not only did it stop the pestering, but if they remembered when we were checking out, they were smart enough to ask "Did you think about it?" Clearly if they asked the first question, the answer is no. So, sometimes I would say okay, other times not. It was NOT a guarantee by any means, BUT it left the possibility open. They might forget. I might say no. But, that faint hope was there...

This is why I agreed that "We'll see." that Paul used was about as good as, perhaps even better than just an outright no. Of course this time it seemed to rattle something in him, but it is a more hopeful answer than no.

Keep that "We'll see." in your back pocket.

If he recovers and pushes next time, use my old gem "If you ask me again, the answer is NO."!

The silent treatment seems to be working as well, so use that often.

(BTW - my "method" used was similar to something in a text book we had for Psych class. I didn't learn it from the book, that class came later. My point is apparently this IS a way to "train" someone (or if done wrong, for them to "train" you!) If I recall correctly, the scenario was more about reinforcing bad behavior, aka drawing the line in the sand, but redrawing it over and over every time they step over it, like the old Bugs Bunny cartoons! It was regarding children, but it can work on others! The key is to make sensible lines that you KNOW you can maintain AND HOLD TO IT!)

elaine1962 - hope the b'day went well. They had started doing outdoor visits at the facility, so I set up one to have a quick b'day for my mother - cupcakes, ice cream, cards, a few little gifts. Not a big deal. I also bought a small white board, to use for communication as she can't hear and they don't often give her the hearing aid.

So, I'm told no food/drinks because we have to keep masks on. Great. How will she even know why I am there? The aides had to hand the cards and gifts. She gets a card, reads Mom on the envelope and hands it back to the aide saying it for your mother... Not even sure she knew I was there or who I was. Oh well, at least I tried!

Also just heard they are going to institute virus testing, per the state recommendations (no cases so far, residents or staff). From what I've read about these tests, oh boy, best of luck in the MC unit! My mother would get uptight even years ago for a flu or pneumonia shot and a cortisone shot in the knee, never mind the Mac Deg treatments! If they are lucky to do it once on her, they may not get compliance a second time!

Dear Paul, this is a bit tricky to write. You have come a long way in standing up for yourself, and in understanding your difficult father. However he is getting older (and I reckon that I have been following you for over 3 years). He is an unattractive and lonely old man, who has no idea about his real best interests. You need a plan for how to deal with his coming years, besides your own plan to keep your own sanity in the process. Not to mention keeping your own family together.

Can you work out a plan for his future? It might cover what happens if you cut off support because he is impossible. Or what happens if he has a major health issue. Or there may be other things that could trigger a crisis. This is something your wife might be willing to work with you on. Or perhaps she can refer you to other people in the health system who could help.

Keep going on your own boundaries, yes that’s great. But try to spare some thought for his issues too. You will not be happy if it all goes pear shaped, and you feel that you have failed after such a long time of doing far more than you should have done. It’s the other side of the coin – actually accepting that he is in trouble (though not the trouble he thinks he is in), and working out how to help. Yours, Margaret

margaret - I agree. I've been thinking what would happen if he had a major health issue not a made up one like hes got now....

I've tried in the past. Hes just so stubborn. He wont listen to anyone. I've tried to speak to his GP - but they refuse because hes of sound mind. I did try to get him to give me POA but he refuses. "No need". I can't force him.

I am starting to look into it a bit more though. The only way hes ever going to consider a change is if hes forced into it to be honest because of health. At the moment his attitude is "well my sons can look after me".

Dear Paul, your plan doesn’t need his agreement. It comes into effect if he really is ‘forced into it’. If there is a crisis and you have to take over, it’s a bit late to be considering the care options. You can keep the whole plan under your hat if you want, or you can tell him that this is what you will do in an emergency. He probably won’t take any notice, although there are regular posts from people who have finally shocked their parents into understanding that they WON’T be moving in. But you don’t want to be coping at the same time with his emergency and researching the options. Having a plan might also help you to focus on the future, rather than his current miserable behaviour.

paul, as Margaret says, no need for dad's buy in at this time.

Just start looking at whatever they call care homes in your part of Wales now, before emergencies take place.

The emergency WILL happen, and being prepared with the names of the places you find acceptable in terms of distance, population and services will be time well spent.