It's been a hard week....

Barb, CM and Paul!

What a lovely thought to book a trip! Send dad a postcard with a message to have a very merry Christmas!

Better yet, BOOK a holiday! And go! (Without Dad, just in case that isn't obvious.)

Tell dad that you've booked a holiday as well.

The "Xmas Day" talk is coming. Wish me luck.
Brother has already said hes booked a holiday over xmas. Hes done this a few times - once its sorted that Dad is going to mine the "holiday" gets cancelled.

I had Dad for prob 15 years. Getting worse and worse. Brother had him once (last year) and obviously has had enough. Nice eh?

Whatever happens he is NOT coming to min Xmas Day after the way hes been. I can't let him ruin Xmas for my wife and kids. If hes on his own Xmas Day hes only got himself to blame.

Paul: I hear you on the credit card "paranoia." Yes, while it COULD be true that people were skimming others' credit cards, I was no embarrassed and couldn't wait to get away from a sister in law. She had treated me to lunch as after I got back from living in Massachusetts taking care of my mother, my sister in law needed help! Now I'm on my last ounce of strength, but did it and I wasn't even asked if I COULD do it. It was just assumed that I would! Anyway she pays by credit card and then places her hand over the receipt, which she had signed and she waited for the waitress to come back! Paranoid much?!
That had to so embarrassing for your father to chase down a waitress for that amount of coin! Jeezy Peezy!

NHWM: I hear you on that one! Quite appalling.

Llama - we've had arguments galore about his "tipping" which is why I just add it to the credit card and say its sorted.

Its SOOOO embarrassing. Hes literally chasing the waitress between tables. Then he presses the pound into her hand and says "thank you". Everyone just looks at you....

Then again reminds me of someone who posted on a DisneyWorld forum. I go every year to Florida. They said that they weren't impressed that the manager in Dennys had stopped her when she tried to follow the server out back when she was doing credit card payment. Idea being she wanted her card in sight at all times because she'd heard in USA there was a problem with card cloning. Embarrassing or what? I can imagine seeing that!

I dunno if there is a problem in the USA but I can imagine the gazillions of people in restaurants every day paying by card and not having a problem. So no problem I guess.

Paul and Llama,

Some people are just cheap! My husband’s grandma had money and even had a maid during the depression! Once she told the maid she would be receiving a dollar raise.

Of course, the housekeeper thought she was going to be paid a dollar an hour more. Nope! She gave her one extra dollar that day. That was it! CHEAP! Right? Yes, shocking and embarrassing.

When dining out with her, she would also clear the table in restaurants of the condiments! She stuffed sugar packets, salt and pepper packets, rolls, crackers, etc. into her purse!

Paul: Wow! I just don't understand that mentality. My mother's neighbor, who was a nice man but EXTREMELY prejudiced (did not like persons of color - a little off topic)- but when this man would dine out, he will leave $1.00! Yep! Here in the U.S., the tip is supposed to be an across-the-board 20%. Now if you have a poor wait staff, you may want to bring that down a bit. Yes, I did see that you said in Great Britain, the tip is 10%. The chocolates have better have been great quality - no doubt they were not for that price. Good grief - he actually chased the waitress down to put in her hand one pound?! Wow - that's rich and that "rich" has nothing to do with money. You must have wanted to crawl under the table!

Llamalover - Yep thats Dad. And dont even talk about tipping....

OK the UK is not really like the US. Pretty much its 10% in a restaurant. Not according to Dad - its £1. Meal comes to £100, wait staff get a POUND.

Thing as well he doesnt get 1) leaving it on the table (someone will pinch it - what a POUND!) and 2) Adding it to the credit card total.

Last time we were out he moaned. I ignored him, paid and added 10% to the credit card. He didnt get it, got up literally chased the waitress around the restaurant and pressed a pound coin into her hand. Embarrassing or what? The look of shock on her face.

He does this. His sister did his laundry for a whole year. He bought her a box of chocolates for £3. Told me "she was really really pleased with the present" Yeh I'm sure!

Paul: Yes, Depression Era mindsets - my late mother always expected a meal out for 2 people would cost $12 (and I am not talking at McDonald's).

Isthisreallyreal,

So true, about how it’s spent. Some people look at money like it’s monopoly money instead of real money at the casinos. Of course, the casinos encourage this behavior. Truly sad, isn’t it?

Not for my mom, she wasn't born until '45. It is from being a spoiled brat, my grandmother was close to 50 when she was born, so she was spoiled rotten and she is still.

The sad part is that her parents were really good to her because they understand how hard it was to have parents so much older than your peers. They didn't know that they were ruining her.

She goes through so much money at the casino it is sickening. It's not about spending money, it's about spending where they choose, regardless of the consequences.

My son would have never received another quarter and he would have been working to pay it back. Kinda explains why he believes that he is special. Them there's spanking actions.

It’s that depression era thinking, isthisreallyreal. They don’t spend a penny more than necessary.

I am not a spendthrift either but geeeez, sometimes you have to part with money for important things.

It’s so interesting how people are with money. I think it starts in childhood. As kids when we would visit grandma and grandpa, grandpa would give us each a quarter.

As a kid I would save up for something that I wanted. My crazy brother would literally roll down the car window and throw his money out of the window if daddy wouldn’t stop at the store on the way home to let him buy candy with it.

Oh man, I get the not spending money. Except she spends it like she prints it, only not on the things that she should be.

I had to hire a plumber because the only drain that worked in the house was that in the bathtub.

Oh it's not a problem. WHAT?!?!!?

I had to basically trick her to pay for it. I don't mind paying for her if she doesn't have the money, but going to the casino everyday doesn't take priority over a flushing toilet. I heard about it for years that she had to pay 200.00 for the plumber. I spent 3 days getting it all scheduled, finding someone that actually diagnosed the problem, paid for the carpenter to fix the wall, bought a new toilet, hired 2 assistants to clean the yard, not to mention I was away from home for 6 weeks helping her with her house that was being held up by all the hoard. But it was all about that 200 bucks. Sheesh! I didn't even get a thank you.

Now, it is time to repeat the nightmare, everything that wasn't fixed then is now in dire need of attention, so that is my December plan, fortunately my dear husband is coming to help this time.

I understand completely the wonky priorities. Sometimes we just have to do what we know is best and let them complain, because if not that then something else to chew on us about.

Isthisrealyreal - I know what you mean of course but a bit of background.

Hes got satellite TV - its complicated because the service and set top box are provided by the company (its called Sky in the uk). But the dish itself is owned by the housing company. So who knew were the problem was?

I offered to get Sky out- but it would have cost £40. NO. Not spending money. OK. I phoned the housing company. It'll be a few days. I ordered a TV aerial box to come next day delivered to home from amazon. So at least he could get terrestrial channels. He moaned that cost £15 (in the end I paid - was going to anyway).

This had started to go the weekend before when I was there. I looked - Im not a sky engineer. I advised him to get Sky in.

Yes I know it annoyed him but, what else could I do?

Paul, maybe you don't see a need, but I would bet that your dad spends a great deal of his day being kept company by his television.

I would say that he would get very lonely if it was on the blink.

I don't even have a television in my house, so I can't imagine, but my mom has one that is bigger than a picture window and she turns it on first thing in the am and it stays on until she goes to bed. I think that she would be very lonely if it shut down.

I know that he has warn out your compassion with his antics, but he is still an old man and I think that life is a bit frightening when you get old.

Edit - an "off the cuff" remark.

paul: Perhaps that was just an "on the cuff" remark. I wouldn't read too much into it, else you'll drive yourself crazy. OR of course, you know your father and maybe it was a little dig. Prayers to you, sir.

Dear Paul, it’s become quite clear. Your father wants to be king of his world, and you want your father to be reasonable. Your father won’t change, and you love him too much to walk away when he isn’t reasonable. Your brother is a bit less clear, though probably he wants father to be happy but with you doing the heavy lifting.

Can you change your own aim to something that is more workable than waiting for father to change? If you settle on an aim (eg him moving into AL), then you can work on strategies for it that don’t rely on him changing his mind or behaviour.

Can you get yourself some counselling, so that you have someone backing you besides this forum? And can you get to see your mother so that you get some background information. Your father is indeed taking up too much real estate in your mind, and partly this is because he takes over the role of both parents.

Boundaries etc are great, but your father is a very strong man. At least make the push towards something that makes for real and constructive change, not just an interminable series of skirmishes.

Love to you and your wife, Margaret

I totally understand. The more you visit the more they expect. When I was moving my father between rooms I was there several times in one week so he just got it into his head that was the new norm. He knows I work so how could that be possible?

and I agree. If they were more tolerable you’d visit more often

"If I say no can do that, 6 year old has a party to go to..."
This is one of the issues you need to work on. We have suggested multiple times: No is a complete sentence. If you must say more, make it simply No, I can't do that.

No explanations, no reasons and definitely DO NOT include anything about the wife or kids or your job. Just say NO. If you give ANY reason, as we have mentioned before, this gives him ammunition. Sorry I'm not available. No, it can't be changed. He will still have his own ammunition, but he doesn't need freebies from you! If he continues to harp, tell him again and again after the simple NO that he has other options, so he's not stranded, he can get food, get out, see the doctor, etc. without help (leave YOU out of that statement of fact.) Make it about him, not you or your obligations. If he insists he can't get food, get out, etc, two words - The Home. Then move on.

As for your brother getting on your case, I wouldn't lower myself to his tactics, I would just ask him who died and put him in charge. He isn't your boss. He isn't your "maker." He has NO say in how you run your life, just as you have no say in how he runs his. No arguing, no explanations, just simply state that your life/time is NONE of his business. Figure out what you are willing to commit to and state what days you plan to be there and that's it. Finalize that with telling him if he continues to do this you will not answer his calls/messages, and do it.

Just because we are related to someone, we are not obligated to even like them if we are not inclined to. Despite how my OB treated me when we were children, I let it go and we were siblings who 'got along' (long distance mostly) until he pulled his stunt last year. Other than finalizing what needed to be done with mom's condo sale/taxes (via text/email only), I am DONE with him. Just because he is my brother, I don't have to associate with him or talk to him. DONE. There were some messages I didn't reply to even then - if it didn't relate to the sale, mum's the word. I don't even think he gets it, but I no longer care. He is less than a horse's ass. Brother or not, there is no excuse for what he did and it is over.

Regrets? For trying to maintain your own existence and sanity? No. Could'a, should'a, would'a will never accomplish anything. If he dies before you (at the rate things are going, you might go first!), what would complying with his ridiculous demands accomplish?  He isn't really ill, so refusing to toe the line by HIS demands isn't hastening his death. As you say, if he wasn't so demanding you likely would spend more time with him (but he often refuses to do what you would like to do to share time with him, so it is a no-win situation - do what MUST be done and no regrets for anything else.) You do what you can/want to do to help and that's it. Not what HE demands, what you CAN and WANT to do.

If/when either of them bring up the wife or kids or job, hang up or walk away/go home. Don't even say a word. Let them escalate all they want. The harder they push, the stronger you make your wall. Sure, it will still rile you, but keep in inside - don't let them see ANYTHING other than the call disconnect or your backside.

There is no way to argue or reason with people like this. Don't bother, it is a waste of time and energy. N-O. There is no reason to feel bad for not complying with or even listening to their ridiculous demands. If you were not related to them, you wouldn't do anything for/with them unless you wanted to - being related shouldn't change that. If people are pleasant to hang with, chat with, etc, you would be there, just like you would with anyone else. If they aren't, why feel guilt for keeping your distance?

Just remember something VERY weird he did the other day....

Hes "sort of" religious. His TV service was playing up. Even though, he was waiting for repair he wanted me to take a look. I'd told him if I get chance.... So I gave him and phoned "yes ok I'll pop in".

He thought the call had ended but I heard him say "oh thank you lord". That really creeped me out.

Is he that obsessed with me visiting that he seeks divine intervention?

Im not religious but I'm not sure if it works that day. I'd like to hope God has better things to do than make sons visit their parents when theres no need. :-)

Isthisrealyreal

Yep competing with your own grandchildren :-(

Its constant with him. Hes 100% of the time playing some angle.....

Like I always said, I visit less now. If he was more easy going I'd pop in when I was near etc but I dont now.

ITRR- What your husband says is very funny. Yeah, if he tells them, he'll have to kill 'em. Ha ha.

Paul: I understand the difficulty of your mindset. Prayers to you, sir.

Paul,

You and I both know that dealing with conflict in a family is so stressful. Yes, it definitely causes stress in the marriage. The whole family, kids and parents are effected. That can’t be helped.

I got annoyed with my husband and he got annoyed with me. Just like any other couple. It’s not always easy.

You have a stable marriage. Both of you have proven that. Same with my marriage but I am sure that my husband has many unpleasant memories of my mom. I have unpleasant memories of his dad.

I suppose our kids will have some unpleasant memories of us but at least we have broken negative cycles with our kids. The ‘perfect’ family doesn’t exist and quite frankly, who needs the pressure of being perfect? No thanks, not me! I grew up with a perfectionist mother and in spite of everything I did right I never felt good enough.

My dad took a different approach. He motivated me rather than criticize. Made all the difference in the world. Thank God for him. He was a good dad and a sweet man. He died in 2002.

Exactly Barb.

Paul, you don't have to say why you are not coming. Everytime you do he gives you grief that only makes you feel more angry because he doesn't have enough class to shut up.

I can't imagine what possesses a grown man to try and compete with his grandchildren for their dads time. But I do know that you can learn to not engage in his garbage. I think that you should practice not giving him the reason why, just sticking to no, unavailable, sorry.

My husband does this thing with people that want information that is none of their business. He tells them when they won't take no for an answer, that it is classified information and if he tells them, he will have to kill them. It is pretty funny how quickly it changes the subject. I don't know, maybe jerking with his head a bit will change the dynamics. If nothing else you could have some fun.

Barb,

I too did what Paul has done. I kept trying to get my family members to understand and they don’t get it. Most likely they never will. The jack a** that I was, I blamed myself if they didn’t get it, thinking I hadn’t explained it correctly!

My Lord, I developed psychological damage from years of being in that atmosphere. My therapist recently discussed with me how much our environment wears us down when it’s unhealthy and a constant source of stress.

So yeah, we do have to back off and not engage. Then dealing with the after effects are hard but at least we are no longer in the middle of it. PTSD is hard but with therapy it can get better.

You make a great point! It’s a waste of time and energy to rehash it and it always upset me further by doing so.

I always had a tough time making my point to my family in a short and sweet explanation. The flashbacks with the PTSD caused horrible emotions and it was horrible.

Our communication with people that we have conflict with should not be dragged out. It may take practice to use less words with them but would be worth it. It’s just to draining to drag it out. It’s exhausting!

Whew! The deprogramming is tough. I swear it’s like leaving a freakin cult! Isn’t it?

Isthisreallyreal,

That is such a good way to be. We have to heal first. Afterwards, absolutely we have to learn to let go of the past and live in the present. It’s the only way we achieve peace. Thanks for this posting. It’s so important for all of us to read. Especially those of us suffering with PTSD.