It's been a hard week....

PPaul, I think you are letting your father take up far too much of the real estate in your head.

Explain ONCE that your kids and wife come first and THAT'S IT. Hang up when he starts yammering.

I don't think about what my parents have done in the past, I would never talk to them again if I did. I base everything on how they are treating me now. I have found that I am much more willing to help when they are behaving like respectful human beings and being considerate of my life and time. But when they are just being ugly and hateful then I don't do as much. I don't feel bad about any of it, they know that being a jackass is not going to get them what they want, so they are deciding what happens. I am just enforcing boundaries, not making decisions.

I think that part of me is always a bit sad that my parents think that they are far more important than any other person on the planet. I think I will always wish that things could have been better between us. I also know that I can't change them, I can only protect myself from them and their unrealistic expectations of being the king and queen of the universe. It is not a good situation anyway you look at it, but I can't be drug down because they have made their choices and now the consequences suck. I have to be totally without emotion dealing with them, I may cry, cuss or scream when I hang up or drive away, they will never know. It is always based on reality, facts and logistics, never emotions, because they would devour me if they thought they could touch my heart. Not easy, but with practice and prompts it can be done.

Paul, it is terrible to have a difficult parent, but we just do the best we can, you are responsible for your children not your dad, honestly, he should be proud that you are an involved dad, it means that he did something right.

Isthisrealyreal - I'm tempted to tell him what I think you're right. To be honest, in the past, I've tried to stay out of it, thinking well if he wants to be a scumbag who am I to interfere.

But I dont think I am caving to pressure just yet. There is no way I am doing what my brother wants. No way at all.

When he dies I dunno. I will have to remind myself of the AWFUL things hes done to be honest. Surely this is normal though?

Do the rest of you have doubts when laying down boundaries that you're being too harsh? Or is it just me? ;-(

It is coming to a head though I can feel it. They've both realised I aint doing what they want and its escalating. When brother realises I aint doing Saturdays like he wants then hes going to kick off.

When I tell Dad Xmas Day is off the cards, but he can come boxing day, then it'll kick off too.

Barb - To be honest I've stuck to once a fortnight because if I do more he latches on and I'm stuck doing it forever more. I'd visit it more to be honest, if he laid off the pressure a bit.

It used to be, I'm in the area, I've got spare time, I'll go and see Dad. Now I know if I go the odd time it sets the expectation that I'll do the same next week. Does that make sense?

I used to invite him out. I'd invite him to lunch then go watch the cricket with me (which he likes). Most of a day out. No. He'd make every excuse known to man.
Week later he's moaning, he never goes out, I hardly visit.

(The cricket invite I was going anyway and I told him this. When he declined to come he expected me to cancel but I didn't. I just said "oh well won't see you sunday then since I'm watching the cricket")

I've tried to tell him about 50 times I've got other responsibilities. In one ear and out the other. His answer "they'll all have to understand that I need your help and I have to come first". Jeez - even me telling him he can think that but my 6 year old or my teen with aspergers wont get that.

Oh hes priceless. If I say no can do that, 6 year old has a party to go to, he'll say she goes to plenty, tell her she can't got this time because you've got to see me. Wow or what? I just say NO I'm not letting her down like that.

I've not yet told him my family come first yet.

Paul, telling your brother that he needs to mind his own family before he gets all up in yours is not playing children's games, it is setting boundaries. He would understand how hard it is to manage if he ever bothered to try being a man.

I tell family that is so busy telling me how to live my life, which is so much more responsibility driven than theirs, that if they spent half as much time taking care of their business as they do interfering in mine they would not have time to meddle. Does it make some of them mad? Oh yeah, but I don't need people who are not fulfilling their obligations and responsibilities climbing my frame about my obligations and responsibilities, they don't know or understand because they are not responsible, easy to run dad around and tell Paul how he should be handling his wife and dad when you have so much extra time because your children haven't seen your face in months.

It is okay to tell meddlesome siblings to get their own house in order before they try to run yours.

I think that you are starting to cave to their pressure, you are already thinking that you will regret not jumping and running everytime you were summoned. I worry that you will find yourself having false guilt when your dad dies. Relationships are two way streets, you have nothing to feel guilty or bad about if you have done everything that you can, not everything he wants.

Acknowledge what your dad is, get your brother to stay out of the relationship between you and your dad, as well as minding his own business where your wife is concerned, do what you can, when you can and find a way to let the manipulation roll off your back, you know what he is. I see you wavering, I know that your dad does, he will make your life hell because he thinks he can get what he wants if he keeps at it. You have to learn to say sorry, no, not gonna happen, ok well I have to go now, bye bye and hang up. You don't owe anyone any explanations for your activities. "No, I am unavailable to do that." Is an entire answer. If he starts in repeat that you are unavailable and would he like you to call a lift or will he be handling the arrangements? "Oh, gotta go, bye!"

You know that you can never give him what he wants, so you give him what you can. Whatever you give, try to give it cheerfully and not begrudgingly that will help you feel less anxious.

So, Paul, let's unpack that idea that you will have regrets when your dad is gone.

What can you reasonably do for your dad?

Is twice a month an average to aim for? Just to sit and chat, maybe bring a treat?

Thing is, this needs to be pleasant for you as well.

Dad's needs need to get managed in such a way as not to impinge upon your children's needs. Explain this to him. Tell him that your wife and children come first. Interesting to see his reaction.

Let it be clear in YOUR mind at least that you've got your priorities straight.

Just because dad has outrageous expectations does not make you a bad guy.

Llama - Dunno about that. I often feel like the world worst son to be honest. I have feelings that when hes gone I'm going to regret things.

Thing is hes OK at times I just have to remind myself of what hes done in the past.

disgustedtoo - I did mention it once jokingly. He got all defensive and pretty much said "no Im not like that its different"

Paul: You are definitely a saint, sir! Kudos to all you've done. I am stuck on 'audacity much' on bro and dad's parts.

'''I remember him saying "If I ever get like that just shoot me!". Oh dear how things change....'''

Too bad you don't have a recording of that to play back for him, and then mimic a gun with fingers!!

Isthatrealy/Needhelpwithmom - Very tempted to tell brother that. Of course, telling me how I should deal with Dad is laughable when he is a deadbeat dad. I've resisted so far and tried to be the one adult in the conversation but, oh boy, its coming.

Yes its getting to the point now where I'm going to have to say that to Dad - leave my wife out it shes not getting involved and I don't want to hear your opinions. Alas, he still thinks hes done nothing wrong ever.

Needhelpwithmom - My dear wife can be a little unforgiving. BUT, I realise now, that for years she bit her lip and put with my Dad and that bad behaviour just kept on coming. In the end she had enough. And looking at it, she has a point, why should she have a relationship with him?

Yeh we used to live about 10 mins walk from my grans. She lived well into her 90s. I was away at college at the time so didn't really see it. I think gran played up a lot (mostly to my Dads sister) with phone calls, doctors appointments etc.

I always remember her playing Dad a lot. He'd get so annoyed that she tried to keep him in the house when he had places to be. I remember him saying "If I ever get like that just shoot me!". Oh dear how things change....

Hey Paul,

You weren’t alone. Ask anyone on this site how dumb I was to put up with all the crap in my family too.

My husband is a saint! He didn’t approve or like it but he loved me. He is so much happier now that I haven’t accepted being the servant in my family anymore.

You’re doing the right thing by backing off. You know that. I felt trapped and confused because they are our parents but Thank God I woke up and realized that it simply isn’t feasible.

They have no idea how it is because my mom never had to care for my grandmother or grandfather. Grandpa died first. My grandmother was in good health and fiercely independent. She lived in her own home until she died at age 85. My mom lived with me for nearly 15 years. Just became too much for me to handle.

Did you dad care for his parents? Our parents expected us to do it all. It’s impossible! We have our own family to care for. It’s tough.

I don’t have a relationship with my brothers anymore and I can’t say that I miss them. They were never kind to me. Our personalities are different. They aren’t easy to get along with.

Amen! Isthisreallyreal. You said it all. I second what you said! Your husband has a right to feel as he does and you are a great wife to understand his position.

Paul, you can always tell your brother that you will have a talk with your wife about helping dad when he can show proof that he is seeing his own children on a regular basis and paying for their support. It kills me that he has the audacity to say anything about filial responsibility. We call males like him deadbeat dads.

My dad doesn't get why my husband doesn't want anything to do with him and I had to list the crappy things that have been done and tell my dad that he will not be hearing from or seeing me if he says one more word about my love. I made him tell me that he understood that my husband is not fodder for his hate and that our relationship would be completely over if he went there again. Made him mad as a wet hen, but I don't care how he feels about it. It isn't about him, it's about my husband being left out of his bs mouth. You may have to play hard ball and lay the issues on the table and then stop answering calls from either of them.

I am happy to hear when a man stands up for his family against his parents.

When your dad says you should be doing this for me, you can always tell him that he is right, you should be, but you aren't going to be.

Barb - yeh exactly. Any normal person would not expect a friend or relative to drive 25 miles each way to collect them to ferry them 500 yards.

He has options. He "could" walk - he does walk that far sometimes. He could take his scooter. He could get a taxi/uber. I've even offered to book it.

I've just checked on google maps. Its less than 400 yards. Uber cost one way is £3-4. ($3.75-$5). So less than$10!!!!

For me to drive, even if his appt took, say 30 mins, its a minimum of 90 mins out of my day, 50 miles round trip. Probably costing more than the uber in fuel. Oh and he's expecting me to tell my 6 year old she'd missing her swimming lesson and gymnastics session for this.

He sees NO PROBLEM asking me to do this. Because I should "do it for him". I see it as selfish beyond believe.

I agree, I've always said this. Its not the act of doing that Dad wants - I really think he gets a warm fuzzy glow when he knows someone is running around for him.

He'll moan I never visit and hes stuck at home. I'll invite him out to lunch and he'll refuse. Two days later I get "can you come over and take me for a drive". Its different - his idea, his control.

500 YARDS!!!!

This is about control.

Barb - the other thing is his doctors surgery is 500 yards from his house. Hes got a mobility scooter he could ride there. He could get a taxi. To be honest, occasionally he walks further to the betting shop.

Me driving 25 miles each way is not the best option.

Yes he hates me doing on call. In on breath he says "its ok for some money for nothing" then "wow you mean they can call you 24/7 and expect you to work".

Jeez I can only imagine being married to my Dad!

Point out to your dad at some point that if he wants help from you with an appointment he needs to arrange with you BEFORE HE MAKES THE APPOINTMENT whether it will be possible for you to come. And since you work as an on call employee, its NEVER possible for you to be absolutely certain you'll be available. That is the reality of your work life.

He won't like that and he'll argue you should not be doing that, etc. "Can't be helped dad, that's how my life is".

You father has no boundaries and thinks that his wish is EVERYONE'S command. And yes, that's why hes been divorced twice.

Well, had an interesting chat with Dad on the phone last night too.
He asked "so has your brother contacted you?".

Looks like as suspected, the pair of them are in partnership here trying to get me to do extra. Hmmm. Not the first time this has happened. When it goes wrong, Dad always denies hes behind or knows anything about it.

I get the feeling this time they've discussed it and my brother has agreed to "have a word".

I told Dad, I had pointed out to brother the issues I have. I told Dad I do what I can and thats the end of it. I also pointed out that this is now the 4th of 5th time brother has tried this on. And its got to stop.

100% as expected I got the "oh no, don't argue" "I'm so upset that you're both arguing". NO CAUSED IT!

I could tell he was upset. (probably upset he'd been caught out). In the past, I'd be concerned that was upset. NO MORE.

Apparently, Dad has made a doctor appointment for Saturday AM. Again assuming someone it taking him. Not me. Get a taxi. Brother will take him and once again it'll be my fault for being selfish (I am working though!)

Dad wasn't upset enough to stop him trying the "weekend nag". I was there last weekend. He KNOWS I go once a fortnight. I am working Saturday, Sunday I want to do things with my own family. But I tstill get the "make a big effort to visit". What? Easy one that though. I'll just ignore him and phone late sunday evening.

Did I mention I've got a bad back (its awful - I had a lumbar injection the other week). I can hardly drive- he knows this. So what does he want me to do Sunday, drive 25 miles to him, take him for a ride somewhere then drive 25 miles home. Are you kidding me?

JoAnn - EXACTLY it amazes me that Dad thinks she does. Shes got her own stuff and own family as well.

But thats Dad for you. He thinks hes the one and only person in the whole world and everyones got to help him and put him first. Hes done it all his lifetime.

One thing that REALLY annoys Dad is that he knows I disagree with him and can't see why I don't "force" my wife into helping him. Crazy or what? To be honest, a little scary because I sort of worked out why hes been divorced twice now.

Surely, OK, being married, you do have an expectation of your partner to support you and maybe do things for you that they might not want to out of love. But, the idea that you can "force" another person to do something just doesnt sit right with me.

NHWM/polar/llama - I think what gets me worse is the assumption that its my duty to do it. Not just my duty to do the basics for him but my duty to do whatever he wants me to do.

I try to be a good husband and father. For years I wasn't - I let Dad get away with way too much.

Not being dramatic but if it'd carried on I'd be divoreced by now. Perhaps that was Dads plan all along? I could live with him then lol. (Rather live in my car to be honest)

NHWM: I know, right.

Llama.

I totally agree!

Paul and NHWM: The sheer impudence of it all is mind blowing - like when weren't you NOT DOING it all?!?! And then dad wanted more and more and more!

Paul. Please keep in mind:

--Their expectations are not your commands. You can stare at them and say nothing.
--It takes two to have an argument You have an option to just walk away. Your keeping cool would drive them bonkers.

Hey Paul,

I get it! Truly I do. You and I are blessed though, aren’t we? Yeah, crappy family situations that caused some issues for awhile but aren’t we fortunate to have spouses that stood by us, kids that we love and return that love. That’s the most important part of our lives, isn’t it?

I support you and your choices. You know what the viable solutions are and your wife being a part of his caregiving scenario is totally ridiculous! That goes for you too, you have done quite enough.

You can wish him well. You can help him plan for his future if you like but you don’t have to sacrifice your entire life for him.

You are a good husband and father. You are doing your best. It’s not about the mistakes that we made. We all do. I wish that my husband and kids wouldn’t have had to be in the middle of family situations with my family. My husband wishes the same about us being effected by his dad. It happens. Sometimes it can’t be avoided. We live and learn.

Trust me, if I could turn back the hands of time I would certainly make different choices than I did then. So would my husband.

I am so grateful to my husband for putting up with crap too but as you say, no more! Amen!

Take care, Paul.

Let’s toast to a happier future that we both deserve! 🍾

Your wife has no responsibility to your Dad. And I am so glad u stand beside her. There was a post a few months back where the husband brought his parent home and expected his wife to care for them.

Loved my Dad but my Mom waited on him hand and foot. I wasn't going to do that. He was never going to live with me. He had habits that I wouldn't have put up with. TG he went before Mom so I never had to make that decision. I would have never taken care of a man other than my DH.

Stick by your guns. Your wife has enough on her plate with a stressful job and a special needs son. Your Dad will be better off doing for himself.

Its going to come to a head this Saturday. Brother has tried the "Im working wife is looking after her Dad" (probably a lie) and apparently I'll have to go. And my wife and I need to arrange to do Saturdays once a fortnight.

I did reply and I was more polite than he deserved to be honest. Reminded him of the issues I have with my family (teenager with aspergers, wife ill, etc etc). All I got in reply was a thumbs up. Yeh I should have replied with two words first one starting with an F!

He is STILL going to expect me to be doing it. I am actually working Saturday am as it is. As the saying goes in the UK "I've got more chance of sh@tting a gold nugget" than my wife going to see him lol.

I might offer to put the bet on online for him. He'll moan. He bets like 10p (13c) a race. Never going to get rich the bookies in his town. Im sure most online bookies like betfair its minimum 50p (63c or so).

Either way I can see brothers attitude being, you can't do it so send wife....

disgustedtoo - I believe its 7 years in the UK for when they can look back....

As you say there are a lot of people who will say "you'll miss them when they're gone". Jeez does my head in.

I guess Im lucky in way being in the UK with the NHS because he will get somewhere if hes got no money. As with everything in the UK, working hard and saving money is bad. People who decide not to bother do just as well. (Don't get me started on UK unemployment benefits!)

Oh yes, in my mind, a parents responsibility is:-
1. Look after themselves where possible and make an effort.
2. If they have a need, be flexible and appreciative that they may need to compromise.
3. Listen to experts and accept help and don't be inflexible.
4. Remember that "needs" are different to "wants". Don't assume your "wants" are going to be met.

Dad fails on ALL with flying colours. I'm confident I've done all I can do meet his needs.

1. He just cannot be bothered to help himself. (Hes capable but can't be bothered - what do you want me to do?)
2. Its his way or no way and no other alternatives are considered. (From things like the house, food, cleaners etc I've offered to arrange it all. All turned down mostly due to not wanting to spend money)
3. Hes got an idea in is his head and nothing will shift it. (If you won;t listen to the doctor and you're still in pain what do you want me to do?)
4. He doesn't "need" anything at all he has "wants". (You can moan all you like that no-one looks after you but all your needs are covered. Just because I refuse to cancel my daughers activities to make a minimum hour round trip to go to the betting shop for you - when you can easily go yourself - does not count)

BarbBrooklyn said:

"Dear Paul, at least where I come from, one's parents are not one's responsibility. One's children are."

It is not so much a responsibility, at least in the legal sense, but some states still have "filial" laws, but more of a social/moral one. The only "responsibility" I would consider is that it is our parent(s) and we should at the very least ensure their safety and well being. As noted in another post, our mother and her sisters cared for their mom, taking turns having her in their homes. She was EASY to care for, no dementia, no real medical issues. I would NOT go so far as to say we are responsible for taking them in or paying the exorbitant costs for their care, but what options are there for many? When there are serious medical issues and one can't take their parent(s) in (there ARE many reasons, most valid), we should not be held responsible by the law or the elder care "warriors" out there. Too many people fall into the cracks - too much income for Medicaid, not enough to cover AL/MC/NH.

We are most certainly not responsible for making them happy - that comes from within (paul's dad doesn't seem to have this.) We shouldn't be responsible for becoming slaves to their demands either, whether they raised us or not (it isn't the same, and some people had harsh upbringing, to say the least!) If one can and wants to take this on, go for it. If not, we should not be disparaged and guilted for saying no.

"Filial responsibility laws (filial support laws, filial piety laws) are laws in the United States that impose a duty, usually upon adult children, for the support of their impoverished parents or other relatives. ... The key concept is impoverished, as there is no requirement that the parent be aged."

There hasn't been, in the past, much enforcement of these laws, but with the explosion in dementia, etc, there have been cases. There will likely be more enforcement as time goes on. There have also been cases where children are prosecuted in cases of self neglect or self abuse, even when the parent doesn't live with them. Rock and a hard place for many. There are people who refuse help (our mother was one - refused to let aides in, refused to consider moving anywhere.) Some actually become very resistant to any help and even resort to violence!

So, with all the restrictions of getting one's parent into a safe place when there are no available funds to do it and Medicaid restrictions deny it, what are we supposed to do? In our case, thankfully mom and dad saved money and with careful management there is enough to cover her care for some time. Others don't have that option, whether parents were "working class" and didn't have "extra" to put aside, didn't anticipate this tsunami of cognitive issues, children not having time and/or assets to cover the costs, a parent who is or becomes sucked in by scammers, addictions to gambling, thereby losing all assets that would have covered their care, etc. It is a difficult road for many. We don't have crystal balls to see into the future.

In paul's case, given what he says dad can do for himself, being his physical and emotional slave is NOT his responsibility.