I'm not even sure how to ask this question...Just like a lot of us, I grew up with a childhood I wouldn't want to re-do...any way fast forward 60 years ( ugh) I finally figured out I wasn't alone, there are tons of us out there dealing with horrid situations of a nasty, miserable to the core mother.
If you read a lot of the threads we are in our late 40's, most of us are 60! Seems like there is an entire generation of us who are dealing with the ramifications of angry hateful spiteful mothers. Was it in the water? WW2 issues, they all can't be born with dementia!? Were they born with mental illness? Was this a social environment learned behavior? How did this happen?
When/where or why did narcissism become a way of life back then? How was it ok?
That pretty much set the stage for the rest of it, don't even ask about teenager time. I couldn't go to college, I was gonna get knocked up and waste the money. Then I met and married the " drunk, the loser"- we are married 40 yrs. He has bad legs, thusly "the drunk" walk and the loser twist. I then had 2 kids- should have had only one-"SHE is just like her father", my son walks on water in her eyes. So ya, ok, by now you get where I am going...but where did this generation of parent come from? Why did the men stay?
full time at age 62, all my brothers are all retired and married with partners to help in all aspects of life....my mother has been all about herself ,we never mattered especially her only daughter ,my mother wouldn't walk across the street for her children! I was married for 24 years had 1 son with Cystic Fibrosis and he passed away in 2000 at 24 years old and I loved him dearly never at any time did I become like my mother ....I was the complete opposite of her , I think I received enough love from
My father to get me through ...so you see mother and daughter relationships can be impossible for us to bear , hang in there ,Peace and I wish you the best.
If you read as much historical stuff as I do, it is frightening to find out how quickly social norms can change. For example, in the 1930s there was a huge shift from breast feeding to bottle feeding because ‘then you know what they’re getting’. Dietary norms have changed just as quickly in other ways, from ‘go to work on an egg’ to a vegan diet, and social norms have done the same. The only way through all this is to sympathise with how things have changed, but function on the basis of what is reasonable now. Good luck to all of us!
I think that we don't talk a lot about functioning families on these boards because..well, they're FUNCTIONING. No drama. No tears.
I am so angry at my MIL today I have worked myself into a migraine. When I let her get to me, I lose.
I have already decided that I WILL NOT be seeing over Christmas. There are no plans with her and I will bow out of anything that includes her.
Does that make me a bad person? Don't know, don't care.
While doing my family tree, I was able to find a ton of old newspaper articles about the women in my family. Vast majority were know by their husband's name, thus there's a photo of Mrs. Xavier Bishop and her sister Mrs. Milton Smith visiting their mother, Mrs. Orville Kenny.
A relative back in the 1930's who I knew had her Ph.D in physics but it took some major digging to find one article that even made mentioned of such a degree. Her husband also had his Ph.D in physics but that was always mentioned everywhere.... [sigh]. Even upon her death, no mention.
Even obituaries wouldn't include a women's given first name, pretty much the "Passing of Mrs. Augustine Smith". When it came to family trees, was this the first Mrs. Augustine Smith or the second Mrs. Augustine Smith?
And yikes, those female relatives who died as "spinsters" which sounded so foreboding, but the word bachelor had a more accepting meaning.
Another issue, in an obituary I was able to match a person's sons due to their full names, but not the daughters.... which daughter belonged to which husband???
Thus, those women who were ahead of their time, were pretty much unhappy with that current way they were recognized by society. If our elder female relatives are still pretty clear memory wise, ask them if they could change things back then, what would they have liked to have seen.
Ha, I remember back when the bank wanted my husband's ok for me to get a credit card. Forget that, I eventually found a credit card company that would take my employment into consideration.
I also have a sister in law who is the same, but five times worse. I guess its as they say you often marry someone like your parent and my brother did just that.
In a way, I put the blame on my dad. People would observe them and say its a good thing my dad was so easy going and low key as only someone like that could put up with my mom . But really it was bad. He was in a don't rock the boat mode, preferring to put up with the craziness rather than deal with it, perhaps causing confrontation. He died this past year of ALZ and my brothers and I sometime joke (or not joke) that he did not die of ALZ, he died as his psycho neuro system was just fried after 65 years with my mom.
But we do feel resentment, as he tried to deal with her the best way he could, his over tolerance and over patience with her just enabled her to be the same way and hosed us kids up too. I never got married. One brother married a woman even crazier, and the one brother, who moved half way across the country is in what would call a farily normal marriage. His wife is a bit nutso too, but very normal compared to my mom and other sister in law.
Anyway, in answer to original question, I think our dads are somewhat to blame for crazy mothers.
this post hit a nerve with me...my MIL is such a PITA....I've had to deal with her total hatred of me for over 44 years. DH? He doesn't see/hear it..just asks me to please be "nicer" to his mother.
Last night we had some errands to run, one of which was to take her her b-day gift (which I had bought, of course..and wrapped).,,,and I usually beg off of going to see her in her home as I feel trapped and she will be so nasty to me---out loud now, filter is GONE...DH just SITS there like a post. But we also had another place to go after, so I went.
Well, MIL had created some "need" for DH to come to her home. It was an excuse to get him to come see her for her b-day as he had forgotten it.
We get to her house, and his sister is there--she'd fixed the problem already..and she is preparing to leave. MIL walks SIL to the door and says (none too quietly) "oh, sh&t, can you take "B' with YOU. I don't want her here". I am STANDING RIGHT THERE!!! SIL has the grace to look embarassed, but, damage done.
So I get to sit there for 90 long minutes while MIL ramps up about whatever, basically, what a terrible life she's had and how I never understood--etc.
I DO NOT get why she has to pick at me like a scab.
Dh has never ever stood up for me,. Never, not once. The he has the audacity in the car on the way home to say "I HATE taking you to see mom. It's like sitting on a powderkeg", I just looked at him and said "I was a COMPLETE angel. She sat there and picked at me and criticized me up down and sideways and you JUST SAT THERE. " "Oh, I hate confrontation. You need to figure out how to handle my mom".
No, sir, i need for your mother to not be in my life. I was in tears and felt about 12 years old again.
So, NY resolution. Zero time spent with the old bat. She hates me (has told me many times) and why do I put myself in a situation with someone who HATES me?
Dh doesn't like to see his mom, it's a grim duty for him.
I also don't get why this WWII generation seemed to have created so many monstrous Narcs. MIL had it hard, everyone did. She is angry at the world--and nothing ever makes her happy.
I do have to laugh b/c she always says I am too young to "understand" the horrible pain her life has always been. I'm 62. I get it.
And she is going to freaking live forever.
I can completely sympathize with you on your husband NEVER standing up for you. My ex never did either. We were married for 30 years-(together 35) and I knew all along that I'd have to fend for myself. When he would not be on my side when our son was being selfish and spoiled and calling me swear names, I knew it was the end.
Ex told me, "To get respect, you have to give respect." I wasn't disrespecting my son--he was disrespecting me. So what ex said didn't even make sense.
If I were you, I would refuse to visit the old battle ax again. There is no reason you have to put up with this abuse. Sit in the car with your cell phone, knitting or crosswords until your hubs has had enough of her.
Obviously, your hubs can't tell his mom to lighten up on you so its best if you never cross paths with her again.
I know how much this betrayal (from both of them) hurts. You ARE a precious person who doesn't deserve this type of treatment. Forget their feelings and take care of yourself.
I was talking on the phone with my neighbor earlier this evening.
Both our Mother’s passed away in 2015.
My Neighbor and myself were our Mother’s least favorite child, or it seemed that way to us. My neighbor and myself both ended up caring for our Mother’s and over seeing their end of life care.
We both loved our Mothers but we didn’t like them very much.
During our conversation tonight the topic of our Mothers came up. There were a lot of “what a piece of work”, “what a fine lady everyone thought she was”, “how did she get away with treating people the way she did”, those types of phrases dropped a lot by both of us.
Honestly, I still don’t know what my Mother’s real problem was. I don’t know if she was a true narcissist. I do know she sought admiration and attention constantly.
As sad as it sounds I too tolerated my Mother much better as her Dementia worsened. As her Dementia worsened she became much less mean. Probably because she didn’t really know who I was.
I have tried very hard and I think I have succeeded not to be the type of person my Mother was. Or I just didn’t get that part of her DNA.
I found out when I was 30 that she endured horrible abuse at the hands of her uncles. She had always said some bad things happened, but never talked about it until she was in the hospital after a diabetic coma. I don't think she remembers, but at that time she did tell me what she went through and named her abusers. She just out of the blue starting talking about her childhood and then telling me some things that were very disturbing. I don't know why, except maybe she had held it in for so long that she needed to get it out.
Her mother resented her for being female. Her mom lost her dad to a heart attack at age 8 and the way she talked she blamed her mom. HER mom was like mom, very needy, clingy and parentified her from the stories she told. Grandma doesn't like women because of this. Mom has two brothers and mom is the only girl, and her mom has always treated her horribly but worships the guys, despite one being a drug addict who won't work and the other being abusive with severe anger issues. Her mom sweeps any and all issues under the rug. It's like, let's not talk about abuse. If you even mention there is a problem, not only is it denied and ridiculed, there is something wrong with you for even suggesting such a thing. Follow the status quo is the name of the game. Needless to say, I am considered a black sheep because I refuse to stay silent.
It was a few years back when I was going through some things with my own daughter that I started going to therapy and finally talking about things to try and work through the dysfunction in my family. I wanted to try and break the cycle.
I think mental illness and personality disorders are to blame too, but some of it is definitely influenced by growing up in a dysfunctional environment. Mentally I don't think mom ever really grew up.
Maybe those that are living the life of a c'giver . to someone eternally grateful and compliant and appreciative .. they never land here.
I felt "in the way" growing up. I know my mother would not have wanted children because she felt so bad for HER mother who had 7.
Mother wanted to be seen as a diva but she worked selling dresses in a department store. She needed to feel she was better than most other people. We didn't have a "mother-daughter" relationship and she certainly wasn't my "best friend".
From this site;
Narcissism;
"An excessive interest in oneself, often accompanied by grandiose views of one's abilities, a lack of empathy for others, and an excessive need for admiration."
That was my mother throughout my life. (Only good thing about advanced Alzheimer's is that the narcissism is gone. Maybe it's God's way of letting me see her without narcisism before she passes away.)
My mother came from a middle class family, her dad worked, her mom stayed home and raised 7 kids. Nothing fancy but enough.
She and her sister grew up wanting the best of everything, other people never seemed to matter. Each wound up marrying 4 times. Neither had compassion for "less fortunate" persons. Both were very "me" oriented. Growing up, I knew I never wanted to be like them.
My grandma never seemed that way (stoic Sweedish woman). Why did mom and her sister turn out that way?
Like the OP, I thought it could be the water (LOL) or just the "vibe" going on in that generation. Maybe it was the desire of my grandma for her daughters to have a better life than she did and they took it too far. Maybe that was how they were "supposed" to act. (Remember being a hippy and how we acted 'cause everyone else did?)
God only knows what caused this seemingly huge group of women to behave this way.
I'm just glad it wasn't genetic. 😊
the beginnings of rampant consumerism had something to do with it. Stay
at home middle class moms like mine could sit at home all day watching TV
or shop all day. Children to these types of women were more akin to accessories
and personal servants trailing behind holding their bags.
I think there has always been narcissism, but prosperity can make it seem worse.
When there is so much luxury and free time, mothers could spend it berating
and abusing their daughters. Back in the "good ole days" everybody had to work.
My mom neither cooked, not cleaned nor volunteered or parented. She essentially
lived like royalty and I was her slave and whipping girl.
Many families I lived around were totally opposite, moms worked or if stayed at
home, were constantly baking, car pooling, volunteering etc. Maybe narcissism
has just been around forever and just gets out of control during periods of
economic growth.
I am far too selfish and prefer my work, my husband, my son, and my interests to be the slave. Definitely I help but only things they cannot do themselves or hire someone to do. So I say no to washing windows, doing laundry, and bringing in groceries but yes to helping them with insurance, claims, on-line applications, kind of the paperwork hell. And it has gone very much unappreciated by the elder men and women in my life. And their peers tut-tut over me and how selfish I am. Long ago I grew a thick skin. I would rather them bad mouth me and be angry than me knuckle under the never ending list of demands and resent doing it. Like my therapist said often to help me set boundaries "someone is going to be angry in this situation - why is it always you?"
--" there was usually one daughter - usually the youngest - that was groomed from childhood that she was stupid and only good for playing fetchit for mama."
--"cared for their moms or in-laws slavishly while the grande dames rang the bell and made more demands."
Yep, I think you nailed it. This ugly relic from the past still plays out in many
families. I think the scapegoating dynamic is either the conscious or unconscious (hopefully) wish to have a servant entirely at one's beck and call. Although, I remember my ex H's toxic family's older aunties laughing openly about how their nieces slaved for them.
Perhaps in the past this grooming process was a terrible but necessary
reality for parental care in large farming families. And it occurs to me
that the past generation understood well that caring 24/7 for the sick
and infirm is a full time job. Having a job and family too is impossible.
It is quite clear that many of us have parents who fully expect us to sacrifice our own lives and well being for their care. While they themselves abandoned their own parents, or else paid them a few visits annually in
the NH. They knew if they stuck around they would lose their own
life, family, career, etc in care. How infuriating is it, that parents, who
abandoned their own, want us to sacrifice everything for them. Even though
they abdicated their parenting role as well?
Our parents generation didn't have the insane work demands after
modern appliances became the norm. Our moms were probably the only
generation of women who could viably sit at home without doing any work,
either inside the home or outside. I wonder how many of these
narcissistic divas were born out the the fantasies being sold to women
by TV and marketing. It's as if they all thought they were owed a movie
star lifestyle. And us daughters were the recipients of their failed efforts
and frustrations.
of their tiny cadre of gossip buddies. And even then... They see us as
competition for attention. Men like them because they are flattered and
fawned over by the narcissist grande dame who wants to star in her
own fantasy show of being surrounded by men who adore and revere her.
Us lowly dunderheads who want to have harmonious family gatherings,
and share and share alike are just getting in the way of this lovely fantasy.
Thus in her childish grandiose mind, we deserve everything that we get.
We're the glitch in their matrix, lol.
And the options opening up for younger women made them feel even more trapped since it was hard in many cases to move into that new world.
Thanks for thought, something to think about.
Back in the 1940's, 1950's, and 1960's, there weren't all these modern devices to help with house cleaning. My Mom used a ringer washer and had to hang wet clothes on an outside clothes line [dryers weren't the norm]. Microwaves weren't even invented for home use. Usually a family had one car, and Dad used it to drive to work.
I noticed "Mom's job theory" not too long ago when my Dad had a heart attack. Mom refused to believe it, and got angry if I or anyone else said it was a heart attack. Mom felt like she wasn't a good wife if her husband got sick. What would the neighbor's think???
Dad didn't mind all of the "house rules" as his man cave back then was his workshop which he had in the basement and also one in the attic. Dad was pretty handy around the house. He was always inventing something.
One thing I also noticed when I was younger, Dad got to retire.... but Mom didn't. Dad could enjoy doing things he liked, but Mom still prepared 3 meals a day, did the laundry, did the grocery shopping, and waxing the floors. Wait a minute.... this isn't fair !!
Even in my generation [70 something] and probably with some women younger, when it comes to the holidays, who does the vast majority of the work? Who buys the Christmas cards, address them, write letters to enclose? Who does most of the family gift buying, buying the wrapping paper, doing the wrapping, and doing the mailing? Who decorates the house? Who does most of the baking? I remember my ex always wondered why I was so tired at holiday time? Hello, his contribution was buying the Christmas tree... [rolling eyes].
And mothers are living longer than they used to, thanks to medical science. So we have more years to have to deal with them.
I really, truly believe that when we decide to live with and take care of our moms, we think we’re going back to when we were kids and living at “home”.
My husband and I met, dated and married in the 70’s. Of course we slept together before we were married. It was almost expected of couples back then. All our friends did. But I was a slut. Either that or she was jealous. Then I found out during her babbling in the nursing home that she probably cheated on my dad with her boss. WTH?
I believe we are the problem, not them. We grew up subservient to our mothers, as they did. Then all of the sudden, there was the NOW and we thought, “wait a minute”. We don’t HAVE to snap s**t every time they bark at us. Gloria Steinem says we don’t! And therein lies the problem.
But I agree. It sure seems like narcissism and toxicity is the norm around here with our mothers. .