My in-laws both live in an AL facility about 30 minutes from me. They are 83 and when my FIL is feeling well - he spends money. My MIL doesn't really spend $ so my question is about how to handle my FIL who is used to being 'in charge'. I am the DIL and have an acctg background so I was asked to be POA several months ago. There are 4 children and they have no issues/concerns with me being POA because I am doing the bulk of the work - I pay most bills, run errands, take them to appointments (they don't drive anymore). My FIL still has a debit card and a computer - that's where the problem lies. Over the past several weeks he has gotten a delivery from Amazon that he says he never ordered (he did order it)...so I return it. He has signed up for a membership club that sends Adult incontinence underwear (way overpriced) that it has taken me 2 hours to unravel because he 'thought' he canceled the service, but we have no record that he did that. (This led to a fraud alert from his bank because the company is a little 'fishy'). I could share other examples of poor financial decisions, but I want to be clear - I have asked him to stop buying things - explaining that I am willing to buy everything for him. However, he is 'the man' and is 'in charge' so he continues to surf the internet and get himself into a pickle, then I have to spend time 'fixing' the issues. I would guess he has mild cognitive issues and that is part of the problem. I also realize the reason they don't have a lot of money is because he has made some poor financial choices for many years. (A $16,000 walk-in bathtub is the prime example of this...bought many years ago when they were living in a modular home).
This week I explained to him that he is spending $5/day to buy books for his new kindle. That is $150/mo and honestly, he really shouldn't be doing that. He is not wealthy and there are other ways to get books than buying them on Amazon. He has told me a few times that he will figure out how to get books for free, but he never does. So for the month of June he has already spend $135 for kindle books and isn't actually doing anything to change his habits.
He also told me he wants me to take my MIL to the audiologist because she needs new hearing aids. In front of him she said, "I don't need new hearing aids". He stopped her from talking and said, "Yes, you need better ones." I am sure he wants her to have the $6,000 hearing aids because that's what he just bought for himself a year ago. Again, they don't have a lot of money so it's crazy (to me) to buy hearing aids that aren't even needed. She had her hearing aids in her ears...she could hear fine. When he left the room she said, "He is feeling well so he likes to be in charge."
Currently, they are paying for some AL costs out of their savings, but that money will be gone within a year or so...so if they don't spend money on unnecessary things - then they won't have to go on benevolent care as soon as I predict. I am trying to protect their remaining assets (we absolutely don't need their money...I am protecting their money so they don't need to go on benevolence or Medicaid soon)...I am curious what other people would do in my shoes. Do I do nothing and just allow him to keep spending money unwisely since it is his money? Do I ask the 4 children to get involved and ask them to take away his ability to buy things? (Since I am the daughter-in-law I don't feel like I can be the one confronting him with this.)
Thanks, in advance, for your suggestions. I really appreciate this forum. My husband gets incredibly frustrated by his parents 'limitations' so he isn't always very rational/level-headed when I am trying to resolve issues with his parents...so advice from this forum is like gold to me! :)
As POA you should be able to request a limit on the card. It won't stop the $5.00 slow death but it will stop anything semi-bad from happening. He could still give away the store through identity theft but he can do that anyway. In fact, I'd consider stopping the debit card and getting him a credit card with a very low limit.
Lock his credit reports. That will stop him from getting credit. I will warn you that I did that and in one case, I don't know how to unlock the thing. They changed the process on me. It'll never matter because he isn't going to buy anything major again and I could always call the agency.
Those are kind of basic, so maybe you've already done them.
And no one confronts issues early. It has to get bad before we do it. It's why no one diets at 5 pounds overweight when a month of better eating fixes the problem. We wait until we're 50 pounds overweight when it takes a year of effort.
If FIL said "hang it, I've always wanted a Porsche and nuts to the ALF fees" and knew they'd be evicted and didn't care, and he and MIL made a joint choice to go off on a Thelma and Louise expedition (ideally with a happier ending), you'd actually have less clear grounds for intervening than you do now, given the situations you describe (and thank you for the detail, it makes it much easier to see your reasons for concern).
He isn't making these decisions, he is being lured into snares; and he does not have the information processing skills or planning skills or internet smarts to avoid them.
Best practice requires that you make the intervention as unobtrusive as possible, and the restriction as light as possible.
I think you're going to need to take the debit card into protective custody. He can bookmark offers and sites of interest, you can then discuss the purchase, and if he still wants to go ahead in the cold light of day... then at least you'll have been able to keep him out of disreputable companies' clutches.
I have talked to the bank and they absolutely think I could become the court appointed representative payee, but that would mean I would have to embarass him by explaining the mistakes/details to other people outside of our immediate family. That seems like such a drastic step.
I’d suggest that you find out & in detail exactly what this fund will do and more importantly will not do.
How would the fund handle if he needs NH care and she stays in AL?
If the benevolence fund enters the situation, would your in laws be required to turn over their monthly income to pay into their costs, so they would not have any of their own income to spend (similar to LTC Medicaids required monthly income copay)? If that happens, will the kids evenly pay for their parents incidentals and give you the $ to continue to buy them things they will need in your role a POA? And do this for years?
Their states LTC Medicaid program doesn’t cover AL, so what happens if he needs a NH and MIL doesn’t? He can apply for Medicaid for his NH stay (assuming this place participates in LTC Medicaid) but what happens to her?
You as their POA will ultimately need to make decisions on this. It may be a good idea that one of their kids becomes their MPOA and they are the ones to make medical decisions for their parents with you remaining POA for financials.
FIL LTC policy, how much longer of a pay out does it have?
Your MIL, she’s private pay, right? Is it this b/c she is not on the LTc policy OR is it that she does not have enough medical needs to be eligible for the LTC policy? could she be ok just in IL? or does she need AL? If he goes into a NH & onto Medicaid, what would her finances be like? Couple’s financial planning when Medicaid is involved for just 1 of them gets to be very complicated.
If my inlaws use all their personal funds and turn over their SS etc. for their care - my husband and I will pay for things from our own funds. This is ok and we agreed to do it because we took ownership of a life insurance policy. So when my FIL passes - we will get reimbursed for anything we have paid out of our own funds.
We have MPOA set up. Two of their children are MPOA, but I am also listed. Since I go to most doctor appointments, know their medical history, list of prescriptions, etc. - I am the most knowledgable about the details. During a recent hospital stay I was the one who went to the hospital to be with my FIL. My sister-in-law (the only daughter) is a nurse, but she has a myraid of issues and cannot be relied upon to visit or help her parents.
That said, a bigger concern should be the fact that you said their funds will run out in a year or so. According to the following site, your state doesn't cover AL and has specific criteria for NHs ("...in general, Pennsylvania's Medicaid programs do not cover the costs of PCHs." PCH = Personal Care Home, aka AL.)
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-medicaid-pennsylvania-will-pay-nursing-home-assisted-living-home-health-care.html
Now is the time for figuring out how to manage their residence and future care. The same attorney (or EC atty if that was a run of the mill atty) can advise you on what can be done. THIS is a much bigger issue that his spending habits (not making light of him wasting funds, that's going to cut the time frame more.)
My POA is a dPOA. Today I went to the bank and cancelled their debit cards. I did this under the guise that the bank had already sent up a fraud alert and the bank felt like this was the proper move so that there would be no further fraud issues. So I am not telling him that I wanted to cancel the card - I made it seem like the bank wanted to cancel the card. I am just buying time for a little bit. I sent an email to their kids explaining the facts. I asked the AL administrator to do a cognitive test on my FIL. This afternoon I told him his debit card was cancelled and less than an hour later he was trying to charge another Kindle book. So the charge didn't process because the card is cancelled, but my husband (their son) just shook his head as he realized his Dad can no longer link the facts together...a cancelled debit card means you can't buy things.
If your father doesn't want you to handle his finances, and is handling his money poorly I would inform him you no longer wish to serve in this capacity and when he has gone through all his money in this manner you will let medicaid know that he is destitute and without funds.
This is something that is not an either/or. That is chaos and confusion. It is something that must be done with meticulous record keeping and with your paying bills for him in his name with your name as POA. Any odd stuff, and when the money is gone medicaid will not be able to figure out a 5 year look back and they may not cover your parents. So this is something your Dad either needs to understand, or, if he is incapable you need to take on. And you may need to go for guardianship if he disagrees but is not competent.
I sure wish you luck. At BEST this is tough work and I was doing it for the most kind, gentle, willing and agreeable person on the face of the earth. All best to you.
DPOA is a tool. It usually not in effect until the principle is found incompetent to make informed decisions. Or, in your circumstance, ur in-laws asked you to take over their bill paying. But for now thats all you can do. You don't have the authority to cut him off.
This probably will not work but get your husband involved. Then sit down with Mom and Dad, looking Dad in the eye, and tell them you have enough money for another year here but that is spending it conservatively. If you continue on buying things you don't need, you have even less time here. That means a nice Nursing home with Medicaid, SS, and pension paying for ur care. You will get maybe $50 ea a month for personal things. You will not have money to spend. It will be gone. So, you now have layed it on the line. If he continues to spend its on him.
As a POA you are not responsible for doing every little thing for them. Thats not how it works. Let the other kids run errands, take parents to doctors. Its their parents. Your responsibility is trying to protect what money they have. Paying bills. Being their healthcare proxy went they no longer can speak for themselves, following their wishes.
In my State Medicaid may pay for AL only if the resident has paid at least 2 yrs privately to that AL. You may want to see how it works in ur State. May give Dad an incentive if he knows that he may not be able to stay at the AL if he doesn't change his spending habits. And there are lots of free Kindle book sites. I rarely pay for a book.
1) your in-laws have cognitive and memory impairment and you can stop "telling them" or "reminding them" of anything -- it is pointless and will exhaust you.
2) even though you have PoA and the brothers "have no issues/concerns with" you being POA, trust me they WILL if things become dyer with their money situation and panic sets in. Your management must be beyond reproach. My advice (as a DIL who functioned in a similar scenario) is to be 100% transparent and send them email updates every day of exactly what you did and why. It doesn't matter if they tell you they don't need to know -- you MUST inform them to protect yourself. This way they can never say back to you, "We didn't know ____" just because they chose to be out of the loop. The emails don't need to be long and no not include any opinion or conjecture about anything. Just facts: what you did, why and when and the outcome. Send to all, at the same time. You won't regret this extra step.
3) you can have one of the sons remove the laptop and tell the dad the computer has a virus and needs to be repaired. This is called a "therapeutic fib" and is not immoral or unethical. It is for his own best interests. Keep telling him this fib when he asks for it back. There is no other easier way to stem the money leak.
4) Create a savings account for their money and move most of it there where he doesn't know it exists or how to access it. Leave just a small amt in the checking account so he can't spend it all. Remove any other paperwork from his premises that would allow him to call for or access their funds or investments. Secure all sensitive paperwork so that he can't give it or reveal it to scammers or strangers who come and go from his home (cleaners, social workers, repair people, etc.)
5) Give them a pre-paid credit card so they have a weekly (or monthly) spending limit that they can't exceed and reload it yourself so you control the budget.
He will be pissed and will harangue you but just point him towards his sons (after you give them a script to repeat to their father so that everyone gives him the same story). This is just the beginning of how it will need to be as he declines further. You and the brothers would benefit from watching Teepa Snow videos on YouTube so that there is education and understanding about dementia, how it changes our LOs and how to better engage with them so that it can go "as well as possible". Wishing you much wisdom and peace in your heart as you manage their affairs.