I have become a mean person since being a caregiver. Does anyone else experience this?

TG, the story you told about your mother crying the blues to you about your father's spending -- and you swooping in to patch it -- is very telling. And I doubt that was an isolated incident.

You were groomed to be the Family Fixer from a young age, weren't you? That's a surefire way to warp a kid's boundaries. Then voila! That kid grows up to be you. Or me.

When you spend your formative years being the "good" parent's virtual spouse, the hangover can last a lifetime.

TG, you were not put on this earth to make up for other people's shortcomings. It just feels that way! And it's hella hard to break away from the conditioning.

For folks like us, self-preservation does not come naturally. We need to learn it. Like learning a foreign language. Literally.

Hang tough, TG. This runs way deeper than "nice guys finish last."

Getting ready for a trip out of town for 2 days, actually looking forward. lots of meetings and time to my own thoughts. Break away from this for a bit. It has been quiet with dad out of the house for a week. Nice to have the place to myself for a few hours a day. Amazing how quiet it gets when everyone is out!

Yeah, he pretty much doesn't get it. Wife tried talking to him last night, he plays the victim card..... I have no patience with him any more neither does my daughter. She has taken to leaving for work early so what does that tell you. He did clean up the butts though. He dose ask if I need anything done around the house but if you ask him to pick up tomatoes at the store when he is going for smokes he remembers 2 days later.....
And I thought life was tough with dad......
Last night it was brought up about them finding a place very soon. Lets see how he moves on this,,,,,,,
I am so disappointed.....

TG, Daughter 2 and I went to see the film Get Out on Sunday night. Believe me, as non-smoking would-be FILs go, you are a gentle gem.

This is your home. If it bothers you, then whatever it is it's not trivial. And, by the way, I am a smoker, and I am *aghast* at the butt on the grill, and at the open windows while the heating is on. Move your lazy backside out of the house and put your stubs in a can with a lid on it, you grubby little guttersnipe you! - is what I would be telling him. You're not asking him to do anything difficult, for heaven's sake. Pretty basic isn't it?

you have 30 days... to do what?

I trust this will be followed by "to get out or I will start the eviction process. Look it up and see what you have to do to evict someone. Get the papers ready. How much notice do they need and so on. If it is to pay rent - look up how much notice they need for that. Have a tenant's contract ready for them to sign if you intend to let them stay and pay rent. Make it official - let them know you are the boss here and being at your place is a privilege and you have certain expectations and put them in writing.
You say he is the problem moving forward. If your dd started moving out I suspect he would follow suit.

TG we will be timing you!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm trying here I really am. BTW my wife is a keeper, after we have cared for her family she is helping me with my family.
Trying to get them out on their own, he seems to be the problem in not moving forward.
trust me, i love my family. When we did a redo of out first house we lived with my folks for 5 months while I worked full time and rebuilt my house at night. I couldn't wait to get out of their house even though it was big enough for 2 families. When we got married we couldn't wait to live on our won no mater how small the place was. We made it work. These 2 are too comfortable. I was thinking being the typical FIL he would be out in a heart beat...... Trust me i wouldn't want to live with me.
Time to have the conversation, you have 30 days....... my clock is ticking.

Well said BB. We've written it all before and unfortunately TG's response is to either withdraw until the pressure boils over yet again or to reply with, 'yes but....".
TG, we persist in trying to help you because you seem to be such a great guy. You've said before that you just need somewhere to vent, but it is hard to watch someone drowning without at least attempting to toss a lifeline. Maybe one day you'll be able to grab hold.

Re: Dad and money--nor should you be depositing money in his account. natural consequences are the best teacher for most folks.

Re: SIL--they start paying rent May 1 and are out by July 1. That's overly generous, but I'm trying to stay with your "nice guy" persona.

TG, let's reframe this. You want to think of yourself as a nice guy; I KNOW that you are one. You do unto others and you care about those less fortunate than yourself. You help out folks who are truly in need.

BUT, you don't know anything about self-preservation, or boundaries. I think I see why; don't know if this will help. Your dad is a self-absorbed narcissist and always had been. Your mom enabled him, never stood up to him, never set boundaries and I strongly suspect that her death could in part be attributed to the years of stress, living with someone who frittered away all their hard-earned money. Does any of this ring true?

You see the world in terms of nice guy/mean guy. There is no shade of grey in your view of how to be.

In reality, there is. There is "I'm a generous, loving dad who is teaching his child how to be a responsible adult by saying "no honey, you can't stay here rent free anymore. You are not sick or disabled; you have a job and you need to learn to live within the means that your job affords you". This is not being mean; this is teaching a life lesson--that you have to earn your way. (when my eldest left for college, we dismantled the bunk beds in her and her sister's room; sent a message that after college, she needed to have a job and a place to live. By the time third child went off to school, big old house was sold; there is a pull out couch (not a comfortable one) in the apartment and a clear message that moving back in is not an option).

With regard to SIL; he is daughter's problem. If she wants him out of her life, SHE has to tell him that. SHE should be in counseling, to figure out how to set boundaries so that she's not trampled by his uncaring, immature ways.

With regard to your dad: I went back and re-read all of your posts. In every single one, every single person who responded told you that your dad has dementia and needs to be evaluated.

Your dad needs to have his cognition evaluated. You then get a needs assessment to find out what level of care he needs. You then apply for Medicaid for him and get him into the best supportive living environment he can afford. He will enjoy being around the other old codgers and will be the darling of the little old ladies.

TG, I'm praying that your wife doesn't up and die from the stress, like your mom, or worse, up and leave, which is what most of us would have done long ago.

BarbBrooklyn, Yes, I would tell him to throw them all out... but in my case not so easy. I know all the things I complain about are trivial in the broad spectrum of things. Like yesterday I find a half smoked cigarette on my grill as I go to grill dinner. I out loud voice my displeasure to myself. Apparently my SIL is in his room with the window open (again while my heat is on). So later he comes down and asks why I was so upset. I had to explain my dislike of butts all over my yard and driveway and so I have a problem voicing my opinion in my house? Really? I have to apologize for talking in my own house? I advised him when he gets a house he can drop them where ever he wants but in my house it gets policed, and when the snow melts pick up the rest and walked away.... Balls, yes he has balls and no understanding of other peoples situations....UGH! Tired of all the crap and walking on egg shells, tomorrow night is the big talk about finding their own place ASAP. The welcome mat is worn out. I am done....... stick a fork in me..... Oh and I haven't transferred money to dad.....

TG, re-read this thread and pretend it's someone else. Think about how you'd react and what you would tell that person.

Yes, I'm a bit puzzled by that cash request. Why, would you want to put money in his account?

This isn't your student child, or a nephew whose birthday is coming up. This is a grown man who's just ripped through nearly two thousand dollars. Why is it hard to say no?

His not having cash, by the way, is not a good reason for you to give him money. Lots of people don't have all the cash to hand they would like. You don't feel the need to bail them out, do you?

I mean... Do you really need there to be "a rule" that grown adults don't ask for money because they happen to want some? Isn't that just... normal?

I suppose I'm surprised that he's not ashamed to ask you.

On the other hand, he's behaving like a schoolboy - asking for money - but then again you're treating him like one - giving it to him. Stop treating your father like a child.

Dad wants $100 he doesn't need it. Say no. Three months to move out - not to pay rent. Get tough with these moochers. your wife has clearly had it too.

TG, with adults, you don't have the same enforcement ability to modify behaviour. You can't ground them or take their video privileges, can't make them do their chores. But what you do have is the ability to refuse to do what they want you to. You can say "no" to your dad's request for more spending money. While it's up to him how he spends his money, you can refuse to supplement it. And you can refuse to engage in the daily battle with the SIL to get him to change his behavior.  You can refuse to have the truck repaired. Time for tough love with this group.

I guess it is always easier than said, I want to do the right thing but it always comes back to bite me in the butt. Of course dad calls today, can you put $100 in my account? What am I going to say? It is always this way, he never learns....... Haven't in 80 years. My number 2 daughter does it all on her own, she doesn't ask for much. The one I figured would be needy is doing it on her own. She said she wanted to go to the city so we said go.... and she did. I guess I now need to give a time limit. We are going to have to talk this week and set the date for time to move out. 3 months, then it is rent time. Tired of all of this..... time to set the rules.

Geez Tgengine - will you never learn that being the nice guy is getting you no where? You need to cut off dad's funds, and give the kids a deadline to GET OUT. I so want to see you actually state how you feel and lay down the law IN YOUR HOUSE!!

Thanks BarbBrooklyn, doing OK. Full house right now. Daughter from the city here for a few more hours. Dad left Sunday to go to a family funeral, of course me the one in the house is the last to know. He gets a call, calls everyone in the family all over the country but I hear it in passing..... yup oh well. He called a cousin to mooch off them for a few days then off to see my sibling and his great grandson of whom he never deals with just looks at him. At least we get a week reprieve! Of course I have to travel 2 days this week, it always happens when I go away so does he, I never get a break.
Daughters both in the house... yea! love having my babies home. A little tense with 3 generations in the house. Trying to remain calm. Had plans to have both of them out for lunch alone but those plans were thwarted. SILs truck had mechanical issues on the weekend. I offered to assist. We will see what happens. Guaranteed the truck will just sit there until I have to do something with it. Anyway, Sunday planned to take the girls out and he decides to stay home to be with his wife, needed a PTO day. I get it, he gets them but he just got full time with the place and works 3 days a week and gets paid Full Time. He is off 4 days a week. So he only gets to see her in the evenings, make some friggin money and get out of my house! I told him again and again get a part time job on your 4 days off and even with 15 hours a week he can buy a brand new truck with part time money. No ambition. Now daughter 1 is using daughter 2s car while his truck is broken. Lets see, rent free, free cars, free laundry, free internet, cable, food, light, heat, dog sitting...... (our light bill is up 70% this month). And the butts, don't get me started on the cigarette butts all over, I cant stand that! Once the snow melts someone is going to be policing the yard for butts, and its not me....
I guess I am an a**, I let you live here for free, use all my stuff, provide everything that you need and yet I still expect my house to be clean, neat and tidy and smelling nice........ Yea, what jerk I am , just supposed to smile and wave, smile and wave......
Between the dogs tearing up my house and the smells of dirty laundry from the SILs room and my dads room It smells like a gym in our house. We keep a very clean hose and 2 of them don't care.
So for now I have taken on the "I don't care what you do just don't do it in front of me" attitude.
He says he is going to AA, we have had no issues yet. My youngest daughter was a little annoyed we didn't tell her what was going on but we are trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. He has used all his chances up, one slip and he is out the door.
I dearly love my family but how is it I have become the one everyone gravitates to. I know I invite them but at least chip in....
Dad got a $1900 tax refund back a month ago, completely gone.. Yes, tires, glasses and a suit is what he spent it on and they were needed. But 10 lunches and dinners out last month, a new had another pair of shoes and another hat, he has (like 20 of them). He got annoyed when he had me check on his account for him to see how much he had in it and told him to stop going out the dinner so much, Said I was yelling at him, he did not need a lecture. Trust me he does not know what my yelling is like yet, he should know he taught me. End of the month and he is down to $200. I think he is paying more dinners in cash so I can't track him. He was always like this, money in his pocket and spends it fast. Mom used to call me all the time and cry to me about his spending. Then I'd have to cover it.... this is not new. I am not in the financial situation to be doing this. I am comfortable somewhat yes but still I have to work multiple jobs to afford even my lifestyle. I work my business and budget my money and find ways of making money to support me and my wife, not everyone else. Sorry, venting..... thanks for listening......

TG, just checking in to see how things are going.

TG, I'm just bumping this up in case others didn't see it overnight.

tg - I am sorry that your wife has reached this point. It is not good for her health. I am not sure that rent is the real issue though. It will not solve him being messy, nor your daughters clock ticking, nor her happiness, In fact, I think you can be proactive about only one of those things which is his messiness. Get him out of your house and you will not have to deal with his messiness.

Re your daughter, you can't make anyone else happy. What happened to her plans for her own place? Her happiness and her ticking clock are her problems and not yours to solve, though you can support her.

Your wife's health, and probably yours, are being affected by this stress. I don't think charging rent will solve that. I honestly think the situation has passed the point when that will help.

Escape - whether in substances or physically running or whatever only allows the bad situation to get worse. Use the energy of your anger, your hurt, your fears to implement changes from which you all will benefit. Allowing dd and sil to live with you responsibility-free is enabling their dysfunction and yours. I hear you answering me that charging rent means they are not responsibility free and that is true, but will it really reduce the increasing stress in the household? I doubt that it will for long.

Wishing you all the best in making positive changes.

TG; I'm sorry to hear your frustration and that of your wife getting to the breaking point.

Over and over, you say "no more Mr. Nice Guy". But then, like now, you go on the road, or bury yourself in a project and seem to back away from whatever you fear not being Mr. Nice Guy will entail.

I'm glad that your wife has reached her boiling point. You may recall that some of us said a while back that we hoped she wouldn't decide she's fed up and just leave. As in leave you all to your own devices. I know you say that won't happen.

I think you need a plan for getting your house back. This doesn't have to involve angry affect. This can be calmly sitting down with daughter and son in law and saying "sorry kids, you'll have to leave by May 1". "No, I'm sorry, no extension is possible. I'm giving you written notice on April 1; if you're not out by May 1, we will have eviction papers served on you".

You just have to mean it.

And again, I will tell you that you would SO benefit from therapy to have someone to role play this with.

Wife is finally hitting the wall. Getting pissed. We are setting a timetable to charge rent. Its getting old. I am tired she is tired. My house is a mess. He is comfortable living where no responsibility, Her clock is ticking and he doesn't care. I don't care about him, he can go poop in a hat for all I care. I want my house back and I want my daughter happy. He is such a load. I get more and more upset every day. I am not a happy camper and people know it now,. No more mr. nice guy, maybe that will get them out. Going on the road for a few days that will help me.

Not coming down to eat, that is part of a little passive aggressive game they are playing. I had family that did the same, ranging from making something different than what I had prepared to eating an entire bowl of leftovers I had planned to use for another meal to sweetly asking "is it OK if I have some of this?" when a plate was prepared and left in the fridge for them. Don't let daughter off the hook, she knew what was going on as well as he did.

I know, my big thing is really a nothing. I try, I am just betwixt between. Love my kids, love my dad but I really want them to move into their own place. I am tired of living in a rooming house. We are pushing them, She is working on it. Him, not sure.
I brought this on myself thinking differently I guess. Hoping dad would split time between sibs as was offered. Thought maybe a month for the kids as they said.... I should have investigated further. When mom died I went into caretaker mode, blinders on I guess. My own fault but this is the first time for me so I didn't know what to expect.
Its like last night, I am making dinner, everyone knew it, I get dinner done the kids don't come down, they are all set. Not sure why, I guess I upset him..... It's not them not eating it is I could have made less if I knew they were not eating. I guess I just expect someone to let me know is just being too oppressive.
I hear the other issues people are going through and I have to step back and appreciate what I have. It is hard when I am in the middle of it all.
Trying to be calmer and let it roll. I don't lash out of show anger, (I do get grumpy or quiet). I just vent here because there is no other place to vent..

"Its been a challenge but I am trying to let everyone do their thing and not worry about the little things that have been bugging me relentlessly. I have been busy with work and trying to get my addition completed. By not worrying about everyone else I seem a little more relaxed."

So, you are "letting the little things" go? Your children cooking an eating dinner at your table is a "big" thing?

TG, it feels to me like you are having vast swings of mood. You are copacetic and calm one minute and in a rage this next...and when I read what you are raging about, I don't see the boundary that has been crossed.

That doesn't mean that it's not a major boundary in YOUR word view; I'm just saying that your daughter probably doesn't see what she's done wrong. Nor would I. Your anger doesn't appear rational, given that you INVITED your daughter to come live with you, right? You didn't expect her to eat at your table, preparing her own food?

I want to share a tidbit from my therapist, from when my kids were young. I was in grad school, juggling an abusive husband, three young kids, a part time job and the prospect of a very demanding career.

I was moaning to Dr. L one morning about my young kids. He stopped me. "Mrs. S, you haven't begun to experience parenting until your children start bringing home inappropriate love objects (I.e., significant others)".

TG, please get yourself some help before you stroke out.

Tgengine - they will never leave unless you give them a deadline!

Lets see, Dad goes to a meeting, I don't feel like making dinner so wife and I go out $80. later.... come home kids are having dinner at the table.... what is wrong with this picture, my house... and I have to go out to dinner to enjoy time with my wife?...... love my kids but want my house back.....

Its been a challenge but I am trying to let everyone do their thing and not worry about the little things that have been bugging me relentlessly. I have been busy with work and trying to get my addition completed. By not worrying about everyone else I seem a little more relaxed. Given the fact that I have been battling a cold for a week doesn't help but then again no one bugs me. SIL has been OK, I presume not drinking. Haven't seen anything out of the ordinary. Still things are not going to change with him. He has been more helpful by cleaning up more with chores. I gave up asking. For now it works.
Starting to make more time with my wife. Will do a date night tonight to get out of the house with her and a little dinner out.
Still miss making nice quiet dinners at home with her, I guess I will be old a gray when I can do that again.
As for the kids moving out not sure when that is going to happen. SIL has gotten very comfortable........ Need to make him uncomfortable soon.

tg - see what a good effect you have had by setting limits - and YOU feel better. Having a plan in case sil slips is excellent.

Wonderful that your dd wants her own place. That is healthy.

Your dad is sensing the changes you have made and deciding to stay out of the line of fire. That is good. I am glad you are cooking what you want to and not catering to him. I hope he does go for a visit somewhere - maybe he will stay there. I expect he is seeing that you are not going to be pushed around by others any more and watching his butt.

As to "WTH, this is the time where I am supposed to be care free between kids out of the house and future grand kids..." many of us are finding that our lives are not turning out as we expected.

"Supposed to" is not a guarantee. Here am I who will be 80 in the summer, still a caregiver (thankfully at a distance) for my mother who is coming up 105 in May. This certainly was not my plan for my life.

All we can do it make the best of it. Congratulations on the positive changes you have made. Keep it up!

Big change this week since SIL has not been drinking. Taking one day at a time....... only 7 days but positive changes. He has been talking. Still not convinced but have to take it for what it is worth. He has been going to AA, and his counselor, he told me all the things in my letter I wrote to him have been addressed. This is a long road to recovery so I hope it will help.
If you asked me 6 years ago what would things be like in my house this would not have been it..... even 3 years ago....... I am still keeping the hammer down not picking it up. As for dad, he has been laying low lately. I am taking his issues in stride.
WTH, this is the time where I am supposed to be care free between kids out of the house and future grand kids...... Guess not......