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Biomidkid here again. Thank you to everyone for your suggestions and sharing of your experiences. I really needed to confirm my interpretation of how the system works. Most of the clan knows how I feel and I have shared the resource sites with them. That is all I want to do, any further research is on their own. I'm not the pro in this field. Just a side note, the money he has includes his deceased wife's entire assets as well. She was mom to the 4 steps. I've got a headache, thanks again.
It could be worth it to see an elder law attorney. Medicaid has a five year lookback period - if he applies for it within five years of transferring assets to you and your siblings, they could come after those assets. State laws vary (some states have filial responsibility laws which require adult children to pay for the nursing home) and others don't. It's very complicated, so he should see an expert.
First of all, seek professional legal advice on the laws. Second draw up some form of legal document that the family is going to get xxx. And make sure he is competent. But here is the clincher. HE MUST WITHHOLD FOR HIMSELF THE EQUIVALENT OF WHAT FIVE YEARS OF CARE WOULD COST FOR HIM. Medicaid will not cover him for five years because of the look-back period. If he has enough for five years of care for him and then it is gone, he probably could get Medicaid and give money away now. BUT HE MUST BE SURE TO HOLD ONTO WHAT IT WOULD COST FOR FIVE YEARS.
Usually there's a "reach back" for Medicaid- like 5 years where they research for assets. If assets are discovered and Medicaid was paying at the same time - they will come back looking for repayment. I work in CA Medicaid and theres a few 100 people (and lawyers) that that's all they do. Reconcile accounts and perform recovery for the state. A good plan is to plan ahead and create a trust well in advance of need. 5yrs minimum. If you're on that edge of not rich- but not quite poor enough.
Many have suggested and I concur - consult an Elder Attorney. If you dad has a lots of assets (money, etc) and a home, these can be "protected" via an appropriate trust. We did this initially to protect assets and half the home for our mother when our father was imminently needing NH care. BTW, based on that experience, I would not recommend NH, but it all comes down to what can be afforded. After he passed and we could see mom heading down the dementia path, we consulted the attorney again and set up a new trust, for both assets and her condo. The only thing I know for sure is that the nursing home required all his income (SS and pension) be paid to them. I am not sure if mom had to pay any more than that, but without the trust protections they can assess half of what there is, including home value, and require payment. I think what others have said is also true - they may not come "after" anyone for the money, but they can refuse to pay. In that case, if he's given away all his assets, who is going to care for him?
I would highly recommend you convince your dad to seek Elder Attorney and protect the assets - no one would get any now, and the money would be available to pay for a "better" place (assisted living, but be careful, not all are the same! Check them carefully before committing!) should he need care. We are paying for mom's AL/memory care with the pension/SS and some from the trust. When she passes, anything left would be evenly distributed among we three.
Biomidkid, Mostly good advice here; but I am wondering about filial responsibility laws and how that might affect your case. I'm sure they are state-specific, and you probably need a GOOD knowledgeable estate- and Medicaid-planning attorney. In my state, children are legally responsible to provide care for parents. I don't know how often it's enforced, but it is the law; and I don't know if it would also apply to step-kids. If your dad gave away all his assets then needed care before Medicaid would pay, could be that only the biokids would be required to pay for it! I don't think Medicaid "goes after" whoever got the money. As I understand, Medicaid would just tell Dad (and you kids) that he will have to find some other resources to care for him until the penalty period ends. Then if only the bio kids are required by law to care for old Dad, will the step-kids step up and do their part? Hmmmm. Or did he give them a better deal than you got? Nasty business, this; and I'm not so sure that your refusal to accept your "share" now would get you off the hook for later, either, because you're still his kid subject to filial responsibility. Lawyer up ASAP. And not some generic lawyer. Elder law/estate planning specialist. And while you're there, start making plans for your own future. It will be worth the expense.
No. Your dad alone is responsible for his nursing home bill, should there be one. If he needs long term nh care he can either pay privately, or apply for medicaid. If medicaid finds out he has made a transfer within the last 60 months, he will be ineligible for medicaid for a certain number of penalty months depending on how much money he transferred. The nursing home cannot and will not cone after family. What they can do however, is not admit your dad if he has no way to pay. If you think nursing home may be in the picture later, it would be a good idea to schedule a consult with an elder law attorney for "medicaid planning." That person would be in the best position to advise your dad on how to get medicaid and preserve as much of his wealth as possible. And as long as he's there, he should get his will done, specifying that he wants his remaining assets divided evenly after he dies.
Assisted living and nursing hime care costs $3000 and upwards a month. Someone trustworthy needs to get POA of your dad BEFORE he gives away all his assets. At any time, one of the siblings can go to him and coerce money out of him. How do I know? This is what my mother did. I had to scrape and scrimp to pay my mom's assisted living care when she required 24 hr care. She went from half a million in assets to $40,000 at her death because she GAVE IT AWAY. Of course, when she needed care, only one other sibling (7 of us) helped.
I can't offhand think of any administration anywhere in the world at any time in the last seventy years (except Cuba, maybe) that hasn't scrabbled around desperately looking for ways to reduce the cost of health care while simultaneously wishing their populaces to believe that they are spending - oops, sorry, my bad, I mean *investing* ever greater sums in health care.
The need keeps growing and the costs keep rising as the sparks fly upward. But I don't think you'll ever hear a politician say "we can't afford it" even under torture.
Actually. It might be quite fun to capture and torture one just to see how far he could keep going... "Our hard-working families deserve the very best in modern health care aaaarrggh no of course we'll never go bankrupt aaarggh no no you'll never break me - !" 😎
The new administration in DC seems to be looking at every way possible to reduce the burdens on US taxpayers, especially when it comes to issues surrounding health care. They are seriously trying to find ways to reduce the huge cost of Medicaid as well, so we may soon be seeing look back periods extending to 10 years and beyond.
Surprise, this would work where the parent has significant assets. Where it could fail would be if the parent thinks they have a large amount of assets but it's not really a lot in terms of AL and NH (or at home care). Not only could gifting create a Medicaid penalty, but some mighty unhappy siblings when Kid #1 gets money early and there's no inheritance for anyone due to cost of care.
What my FIL did to ensure a fair payout was to loan the money to the needy kid. This loan became payable upon his death, but could instead be "forgiven" as part of the heir's payout from the estate.
In other words, sister borrowed 100K, when dad died she owed him 100k, but let's say his estate was worth 1M (including the loan as an asset) /4 kids. Each kid could get 250 if the loan were paid off. Instead, sister had her loan "forgiven" so each of the other kids got 250K, and she received 150K and essentially the repayment of her 100K loan.
If dad has enough to worry about this, he needs an estate attorney. There are some really good options to prevent heirs from spending the money all at once. These involve trusts, and instead of having one or two payouts at certain ages, can require the heir to submit their W2 for doubling until the inheritance runs out. No W2, no extra funds this year. Pretty nifty, and it ensures that the kid will have to work to get the money!
deadonarrival, I'm sorry you're experiencing problems with your step sons' expecting money, and your brothers' expecting free housing and care. But you're being pretty hard on biokid, as you're making assumptions colored by your experience, not any knowledge of his/her situation. Our parents' generation is the first to need huge sums of money for their own care. They are also the generation needing to liquidate all assets for this care, leaving them unable to leave an inheritance for their kids. It's very difficult for our parents to think that all of their hard work will not benefit their kids. So in many cases, it's the parent who initiates talk of transferring the money, not the kids.
It sounds to me like biokid is trying to be proactive BEFORE anything is transferred to head off future problems. I think biokid is being prudent in checking to see asking questions now because he/she knows that if Dad does divvy up the assets, even if he/she doesn't accept any money, he/she will be pulled into the mess of how will Dad be cared for during the Medicaid penalty period.
Your dad's health requires your dad's money. Get over it. All of you are trying to get the fatted calf of his life's work. While putting the financial burden of your father on other taxpayers. If your dad was penniless you would not even be talking to him. He wouldn't be able to hunt any of you down with hunting dogs. Predatory behavior and not only on your dad but the NH industry and taxpayers. The old sick parents. They got money. They don't need it. You are the type that will take the money and leave dad to fend for himself. All of you are so typical of what relatives do to their aging relatives. My husband's illness took almost everything we both had. Including my pension. Now my late husband's insane relatives want me to split my widow's ssa and pension with them. Why? Because there is no reason for me to be greedy and they are the ones that cleaned us out. He is dead and they are wanting my money. Want to know where they are? And for over 10 years I cared for my hubby completely by myself. In 18 years I saw one of late hubby's son 4 times and never met his other one. And I have 3 brothers who have made themselves seriously ill with their lifestyle choices and want me to support them. Let them move into my house and caregive to them. My answer. H*ll NO!!! Get over yourselves. Dad's money is for dad's needs. No windfall here. But 3 hots and a cot. This is fraudulent activity. Another fine example of Me First generation.
You didn't say it here, but a poster said that you stated on another thread that 2 siblings need the money now.
Why on earth should your father feel morally responsible for the financial well being of your 2 siblings? Do they need the money to put food on the table & avoid being evicted or do they want the money to buy something they can't afford? I'm not sure why this matters. But putting pressure on your father to get money is WRONG. You need to get together with your 5 other siblings that don't need your father's money & the 6 of you should let the other 2 know that what they're doing is wrong & if they need money, they should think of other ways to get it.
Your father shouldn't be considering giving away all his assets now to all 8 of his children because 2 need money now. If he gives away all of his assets, he will lose any interest on the money he has, and if he sells his house, he will likely lose out on any increase in value the house will build over the next few years. What I'm saying is that if he gives the assets away now, he is going to lose money that he could use to pay for his care.
Biomidkid, all great answers & suggestions for your important question. I didn't sense anyone on the defense, just being upfront, which is a win/win for everyone seeking an answer on the why or what to do next questions we have on this site, a great one! Medicaid rules are complicated & can be difficult to understand, especially if a crisis creeps up. If your dad has any assets, too many to mention, consult with an elder attorney now & get things in order legally. You don't want to hold off until your dad has a health crisis or signs of any memory impairments, it just magnifies heartache and stress levels for everyone. Medicaid does have a 5 year look back rule, it used to be 3, I've also heard it may go to a 7 year. Any penalty period is tough, nobody likes them, especially family members who are doing everything right for a loved one. With any illness it's not written in stone what's to be. Will our loved one get better or not? There's no timeframing or predicting a serious illness. Excellent care, if needed, doesn't come cheap, your dad's $ may be needed for that. Loving family caregivers mean well, but, there is a mental & physical toll to caring, it may not be a forever possibility. No one likes to think of our what ifs or make legal & binding decisions, but it's really the better way. Your dad may have options now, but not later. A long term care policy for "a just in case" is a good thought. No one loves an, "Oh no," moment, nothing lost by consulting. Good Luck
I didn't read the OP second post about the "why" the question was being asked.
What would happen is that if Medicaid looked back 60 months & saw that he gave all of his assets to his kids, and his kids weren't willing to give the assets back to fund his care in the nursing home, Medicaid would not cover him & he wouldn't be able to go into the nursing home. The nursing home/Medicaid would expect that however much he had in assets at the time he gave it all to his kids be paid for his care to the nursing home before Medicaid stepped in & paid for care for the remainder of his life.
And no---if you didn't take any of the assets, you would not be expected to pitch in to pay for the nursing home care. You didn't take any of the assets---why would you be held liable?
I agree with other posters here: If he wants to give his assets to all 8 kids now, he can do that. The caveat would be that all 8 kids equally care for him instead of going into a nursing home for 61 months. After that, he can apply for Medicaid & go into a nursing home.
If it is less than 5 years that he transfers all of his assets, the answer is a resounding YES. He can't transfer all of his assets to avoid using his own money to pay for nursing home care & then expect Medicaid to cover everything. If he transfers all of his assets & then 62 months later is admitted to a nursing home, the answer is no---they cannot demand payment from his kids.
No way will all 8 save the money to help pay for dad. He needs to keep his money and pay for what he needs. All the kids are adults and need to take care of themselves and their own families. Your dad sounds like a nice man but he needs to worry about himself and not do something that will almost surely cause a rift between his kids. No matter what they all say now...someone will default and someone will get angry.
@Guestshopadmin - MediCaid vs MediCARE really isn't the question here. And yes, Medicare does pay towards Nursing Home Care.
Thank you for your "legal advice" - but this person still needs to seek professional advice - there IS a time-frame that the monies can be taken back and even worse, they can refuse care. If you don't think this is true, start asking questions.
As Executrix for my Dad's "Estate" - I was even advised that I would personally be responsible for all bills as long as there was supposed to be money in his accounts. I was told, under no circumstances was I to dispense his monies until after Probate.
Even the VA Nursing Home will take the home and assets in return for taking the patient. YES, I did ask and was given forms to fill out. Just FYI, the VA is all 50 states, so we're not dealing with a state law here.
And that isn't Medicare or Medicaid - that is the VA.
Thankfully, I was able to keep my Dad at home for the full 7+ years.
@Guestshopadmin - MediCaid vs MediCARE really isn't the question here.
Thank you for your "legal advice" - but this person still needs to seek professional advice - there IS a time-frame that the monies can be taken back and even worse, they can refuse care. If you don't think this is true, start asking questions.
As Executrix for my Dad's "Estate" - I was even advised that I would personally be responsible for all bills as long as there was supposed to be money in his accounts. I was told, under no circumstances was I to dispense his monies until after Probate.
Even the VA Nursing Home will take the home and assets in return for taking the patient. YES, I did ask and was given forms to fill out. Just FYI, the VA is all 50 states, so we're not dealing with a state law here.
And that isn't Medicare or Medicaid - that is the VA.
Thankfully, I was able to keep my Dad at home for the full 7+ years.
If your dad transfers large sums of money and has nothing to pay the nursing home, and applies for Medicaid within 60 months of such transfer, Medicaid will disqualify him for a long time (depending on what state you live in and how much was transferred). During the penalty period the nursing home will want to be paid privately; if your father cannot pay, he will not be admitted. Unlike hospital emergency rooms, nursing homes are not required to take in indigent patients (that's what Medicaid is supposed to be for, the payment to the nursing homes for indigent patients). As a result, your father will be refused admittance to any nursing home; they are not in the business of charity.
Raylin, it is MediCAID, not MediCARE. Medicare does not pay for custodial care, i.e. nursing home. Nursing homes are paid by MediCAID and MediCAID attempts to recover monies paid to NH or doctors on behalf of patients after they pass away from their estate. You always have the option not to involve MediCAID if you don't want to lose assets, but then your family or you will have to pay privately/out of pocket for your care.
we were advised there is a time-frame to be considered.
I just recently learned, it isn't the nursing home taking the assets - it's Medicare trying to recoup their expenses. No, I don't know how true it is, but this is from a friend going through it.
If Medicare is paying for the Nursing Home, then you will need to deal with the time frame or they can demand all the monies back.
Your bank manager could help you with this - ours helped us immensely and made wonderful suggestions.
The best thing is to get solid advice from an estate attorney not only for the reason Medicaid could eventually come into play but when dealing with biological and step children things always get complicated. Solid legal advice is best to save yourself alot of headache.
The point was...if you take away his ability to care for himself...you had better be prepared to take care of him yourself...cause Medicaid won't because of the movement of those assets.
Most right thinking adults would understand that NOT taking his money and assets is the only sane choice.
So, Biomidkid, have any of these comments helped you decide what to do?
My husband Coy and I have told our kids all along that whatever is left to inherit will be divided evenly among them. Our wills state this. But there is an element of trust involved. Now that Coy has died nothing would stop me to change my will to give everything to my biological sons and leave my stepdaughters out completely. Nothing, that is, except my love for them and my desire to live up to Coy's expectation. One son is beneficiary to a small insurance policy, with the idea that will cover my cremation etc and any leftover should be divided among the 5 of them. Of course this relies on trust, too. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he will handle it as instructed.
We have also told them all along not to expect much, if anything, as an inheritance. We planned to spend our own money while we were alive!
I really don't understand your dad's worry about all the kids getting equal inheritance. If he writes his will that way, why wouldn't that happen? Is there someone who might contest the will? If he doesn't have a will, only his biological kids will inherit (I think) but that is easily prevented by having a will. Is there some element of distrust here?
So I really don't understand his reasoning about giving away his assets now. What is that actually about?
The only conundrum I see here is what to do about the 2 who need money now. And any solution to that will have less Medicaid consequences than giving everything away.
I sure hope you are able to convince Dad to do the sensible thing and just ensure equal division of assets when he dies.
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I really needed to confirm my interpretation of how the system works.
Most of the clan knows how I feel and I have shared the resource sites with them.
That is all I want to do, any further
research is on their own. I'm not the pro in this field.
Just a side note, the money he has includes his deceased wife's entire assets as well. She was mom to the 4 steps.
I've got a headache, thanks again.
After he passed and we could see mom heading down the dementia path, we consulted the attorney again and set up a new trust, for both assets and her condo.
The only thing I know for sure is that the nursing home required all his income (SS and pension) be paid to them. I am not sure if mom had to pay any more than that, but without the trust protections they can assess half of what there is, including home value, and require payment.
I think what others have said is also true - they may not come "after" anyone for the money, but they can refuse to pay. In that case, if he's given away all his assets, who is going to care for him?
I would highly recommend you convince your dad to seek Elder Attorney and protect the assets - no one would get any now, and the money would be available to pay for a "better" place (assisted living, but be careful, not all are the same! Check them carefully before committing!) should he need care. We are paying for mom's AL/memory care with the pension/SS and some from the trust. When she passes, anything left would be evenly distributed among we three.
Mostly good advice here; but I am wondering about filial responsibility laws and how that might affect your case. I'm sure they are state-specific, and you probably need a GOOD knowledgeable estate- and Medicaid-planning attorney. In my state, children are legally responsible to provide care for parents. I don't know how often it's enforced, but it is the law; and I don't know if it would also apply to step-kids.
If your dad gave away all his assets then needed care before Medicaid would pay, could be that only the biokids would be required to pay for it!
I don't think Medicaid "goes after" whoever got the money. As I understand, Medicaid would just tell Dad (and you kids) that he will have to find some other resources to care for him until the penalty period ends. Then if only the bio kids are required by law to care for old Dad, will the step-kids step up and do their part? Hmmmm. Or did he give them a better deal than you got?
Nasty business, this; and I'm not so sure that your refusal to accept your "share" now would get you off the hook for later, either, because you're still his kid subject to filial responsibility.
Lawyer up ASAP. And not some generic lawyer. Elder law/estate planning specialist. And while you're there, start making plans for your own future. It will be worth the expense.
The need keeps growing and the costs keep rising as the sparks fly upward. But I don't think you'll ever hear a politician say "we can't afford it" even under torture.
Actually. It might be quite fun to capture and torture one just to see how far he could keep going... "Our hard-working families deserve the very best in modern health care aaaarrggh no of course we'll never go bankrupt aaarggh no no you'll never break me - !" 😎
In other words, sister borrowed 100K, when dad died she owed him 100k, but let's say his estate was worth 1M (including the loan as an asset) /4 kids. Each kid could get 250 if the loan were paid off. Instead, sister had her loan "forgiven" so each of the other kids got 250K, and she received 150K and essentially the repayment of her 100K loan.
If dad has enough to worry about this, he needs an estate attorney. There are some really good options to prevent heirs from spending the money all at once. These involve trusts, and instead of having one or two payouts at certain ages, can require the heir to submit their W2 for doubling until the inheritance runs out. No W2, no extra funds this year. Pretty nifty, and it ensures that the kid will have to work to get the money!
It sounds to me like biokid is trying to be proactive BEFORE anything is transferred to head off future problems. I think biokid is being prudent in checking to see asking questions now because he/she knows that if Dad does divvy up the assets, even if he/she doesn't accept any money, he/she will be pulled into the mess of how will Dad be cared for during the Medicaid penalty period.
Why on earth should your father feel morally responsible for the financial well being of your 2 siblings? Do they need the money to put food on the table & avoid being evicted or do they want the money to buy something they can't afford? I'm not sure why this matters. But putting pressure on your father to get money is WRONG. You need to get together with your 5 other siblings that don't need your father's money & the 6 of you should let the other 2 know that what they're doing is wrong & if they need money, they should think of other ways to get it.
Your father shouldn't be considering giving away all his assets now to all 8 of his children because 2 need money now. If he gives away all of his assets, he will lose any interest on the money he has, and if he sells his house, he will likely lose out on any increase in value the house will build over the next few years. What I'm saying is that if he gives the assets away now, he is going to lose money that he could use to pay for his care.
What would happen is that if Medicaid looked back 60 months & saw that he gave all of his assets to his kids, and his kids weren't willing to give the assets back to fund his care in the nursing home, Medicaid would not cover him & he wouldn't be able to go into the nursing home. The nursing home/Medicaid would expect that however much he had in assets at the time he gave it all to his kids be paid for his care to the nursing home before Medicaid stepped in & paid for care for the remainder of his life.
And no---if you didn't take any of the assets, you would not be expected to pitch in to pay for the nursing home care. You didn't take any of the assets---why would you be held liable?
I agree with other posters here: If he wants to give his assets to all 8 kids now, he can do that. The caveat would be that all 8 kids equally care for him instead of going into a nursing home for 61 months. After that, he can apply for Medicaid & go into a nursing home.
And yes, Medicare does pay towards Nursing Home Care.
Thank you for your "legal advice" - but this person still needs to seek professional advice - there IS a time-frame that the monies can be taken back and even worse, they can refuse care. If you don't think this is true, start asking questions.
As Executrix for my Dad's "Estate" - I was even advised that I would personally be responsible for all bills as long as there was supposed to be money in his accounts. I was told, under no circumstances was I to dispense his monies until after Probate.
Even the VA Nursing Home will take the home and assets in return for taking the patient. YES, I did ask and was given forms to fill out. Just FYI, the VA is all 50 states, so we're not dealing with a state law here.
And that isn't Medicare or Medicaid - that is the VA.
Thankfully, I was able to keep my Dad at home for the full 7+ years.
Thank you for your "legal advice" - but this person still needs to seek professional advice - there IS a time-frame that the monies can be taken back and even worse, they can refuse care. If you don't think this is true, start asking questions.
As Executrix for my Dad's "Estate" - I was even advised that I would personally be responsible for all bills as long as there was supposed to be money in his accounts. I was told, under no circumstances was I to dispense his monies until after Probate.
Even the VA Nursing Home will take the home and assets in return for taking the patient. YES, I did ask and was given forms to fill out. Just FYI, the VA is all 50 states, so we're not dealing with a state law here.
And that isn't Medicare or Medicaid - that is the VA.
Thankfully, I was able to keep my Dad at home for the full 7+ years.
I just recently learned, it isn't the nursing home taking the assets - it's Medicare trying to recoup their expenses. No, I don't know how true it is, but this is from a friend going through it.
If Medicare is paying for the Nursing Home, then you will need to deal with the time frame or they can demand all the monies back.
Your bank manager could help you with this - ours helped us immensely and made wonderful suggestions.
The point was...if you take away his ability to care for himself...you had better be prepared to take care of him yourself...cause Medicaid won't because of the movement of those assets.
Most right thinking adults would understand that NOT taking his money and assets is the only sane choice.
My husband Coy and I have told our kids all along that whatever is left to inherit will be divided evenly among them. Our wills state this. But there is an element of trust involved. Now that Coy has died nothing would stop me to change my will to give everything to my biological sons and leave my stepdaughters out completely. Nothing, that is, except my love for them and my desire to live up to Coy's expectation. One son is beneficiary to a small insurance policy, with the idea that will cover my cremation etc and any leftover should be divided among the 5 of them. Of course this relies on trust, too. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he will handle it as instructed.
We have also told them all along not to expect much, if anything, as an inheritance. We planned to spend our own money while we were alive!
I really don't understand your dad's worry about all the kids getting equal inheritance. If he writes his will that way, why wouldn't that happen? Is there someone who might contest the will? If he doesn't have a will, only his biological kids will inherit (I think) but that is easily prevented by having a will. Is there some element of distrust here?
So I really don't understand his reasoning about giving away his assets now. What is that actually about?
The only conundrum I see here is what to do about the 2 who need money now. And any solution to that will have less Medicaid consequences than giving everything away.
I sure hope you are able to convince Dad to do the sensible thing and just ensure equal division of assets when he dies.