When is enough enough with narcissistic parents?

Whitehorse - my answer to your question - which is a good one - I am the executor and trustee for her and the trust - I am medically responsible - even if I did just drop her off at the AL - I am still the one they call for medical issues - AND when she acts horribly at the AL home. I have to race down to deal with issues - as my brother won't do anything - and never has. I have always been the responsible one - and will continue to do so. I do now understand why there are so many people in AL homes that have no visitors - they are like our mothers. I think we get to a place where we do our "token" visits and there are some that do so as we are all pretty codependent. My narc mother was also an alcoholic - so I am a classic codependent. So was my father. No one visits my mother anymore either. She had 2 friends that did for a while - chased one off, fired the care person I had for her and the last one has just faded out as she just got tired of her nastiness. I tell all my friends that have wonderful loving mothers - hug them and appreciate them - I so wish I had one like that.

Some of us were not so obviously abused so as to be able to say "I'm being abused." Our heads have been re-screwed many times, so that seeing clearly is impossible. Many of us received intermittent good parenting, or as psychological researchers say, a "partial reinforcement schedule." The "Air Blast" monkey mothers caused their babies to cling even harder and more desperately in spite of the abuse. One cannot heal from that, only try to constantly reprogram and get ever-more aware of being duped and our own proclivity to put ourselves on the line for another. That is wired in us. Sometimes I feel that no matter how knowledgeable and aware I become of my own empathy being manipulated -- I can't help but cave in like anyone who drinks too much wine or eats too much ice cream. Instant relief and the nagging, inner denigration conscience stops. It's embarrassing to be 62 years old and realize you are just starting to go through what you should have as a 13 year old. Like coming out of locked closet after many years.

yes 50'sChild... It all especially comes back to you when you take care of your adult parent (along with the sibling baggage)... I also read this in a book lately. Hang in there with us...

I heard Joel Osteen on tv say yesterday that when you're thrown 'crap' ... it only becomes 'fertilizer' to make you grow... (interesting)

50schild -- I still periodically kick myself for taking so long to see things clearly. I know it's not fair to myself, or helpful, but I still do it.

I am also beginning to believe that "Stockholm Syndrome" does apply to anyone who was controlled by a terrorist. Even and especially if that terrorist did love you and show you kindness. Only to make the ground disappear in a moment's glance. And yet, to the outside world -- no bruises, no problem, high achieving kids. Indoors, a little psych shop of horrors.

I have found that I can stand my ground, toss whatever back at mom, and more or less, win the day. Point being, I just focus on the one area that is a problem and no matter where narc mom takes it, come back to it and reiterate it. I have a lengthy incident to back that up, but maybe later.
Whole incident boiled down to I will NOT say 'how high' just because she says jump. You can wait a damned minute and a half for your lousy tea that you forgot. I am washing my hands because I cleaned your commode piss pot out.

two cents ¢¢

50sChild, Stockholm Syndrome is precisely the right analogy. The defining feature is that the abused child comes to *agree* with its parent, at least in that it accepts the parent's demands, attitudes and behaviour without question. It would also explain why, for still imprisoned victims like my lovely SIL, any challenge to the parent's hold over the child is unbearable to the child, not to be thought of. My SIL will say, quite literally, that her mother is "wonderful." As in, was a wonderful mother. Perhaps fortunately, the grotesque irony of it leaves me speechless.

I put up with a narcissistic daughter and her husband for over 20 years. They maligned me, ignored me, told me they didn't respect me and to top it all off they said they respected my husband, but I was not worthy of respect. There is nothing they can point to that I have done to them, they simply don't like my directness when it comes to communication.

Narcs love secrecy, when I am open and honest about my feelings and the things they do that are mean, they express narcissistic rage, speak against me to others while criticizing everything I do to elevate themselves and demean me.

The difference between me and my husband is that I speak openly about matters and he remains silent while flattering and complimenting. He never confronts them on their behavior nor does he show disapproval when there should be some. While I don't blame him for anything, that's his personality, I feel that I am seen as the bad one for telling the truth while he is the good guy for flattering.

I have learned that narcs are hyper sensitive to criticism no matter how small and will rage and execute revenge when they are confronted about their behavior on any level. There have only been a couple of times in over 20 years that I expressed my beliefs that were scorned because it meant that they would have to re-evaluate their actions and attitudes.

I have recently gone "no contact" to keep them away from me. When a person is not allowed to have opinions and personality with a friend, then there is no friendship, only narcissistic supply.

Friendships are based on mutual and reciprocal love and respect. When someone expects all the love and respect and has none for their friend, then the friendship is ruined with no possibility of mending. Narcs do not listen, they do not care because they lack empathy and kindness, there is no way to reach them for growth and learning.

My sisters and I feel we are being held hostage by our our narcissistic Mom and brother when ti comes to our Dad, who has dementia and severe physical health problems. If it was just them I'd leave them to it. But I don't have confidence in their ability to care for Dad safety and health wise and also with their impartience and other negative behavior towards Dad. Mom is 88 and forgets things too and/or can'tor won't decisions about her own health let alone Dad's and his additional needs. . She'll listen to brother but he is just the chauffeur when it comes to doc appts. - doesn't go in or take notes to share. Doesn't communicate with sibs at all, let alone about Dad's care.

I know Gogurlz... It's so extremely maddening having a narcissistic parent/sibling. I too deal with this everyday, and I fight the depression (mine) that comes along with it. I don't think there is anything more hurtful than a family member hurting you (sometimes, laughing in your face) when all you want is to be treated as a normal human being... especially, when you are trying to care for them, so 'they' are comfortable and don't get hurt. Ironic, eh?... Love to you!... (It's not us... just something we're obviously born into... but, I guess it could be worse... Try and take care do yourself... along with me... us...).

Hi Everybody, I'm new here. I'm so happy to have found this site with all its massively helpful articles, posts etc. I'm having trouble navigating where the forums are and stuff. I'd like to see the "latest" or most recent posts/answers but it seems like most are posted from years ago. Not that they aren't relevant, they definitely are, just looking for active posters for interaction now. Any suggestions or tips how I navigate here? Thank you.

Yes Gia... Aging Care has been working on their website... It can be messed up at times... Go to the top of the page and click on 'last' to take you to the most recent posts... Big Welcome!....

My aunt definitely falls into the narcissistic category. It might be that in some cases NPD runs in families because both my aunt, and her own son, as well as a couple of other family members fit much of its description. But I digress...I am trying to deal with the idea that in the coming months my aunt may be coming to live with me or near me and because I've dealt with her enough, there aren't any surprises personality wise. What is hard is to detect things in other areas. Since I haven't had to navigate through her personal finances before, dealing with her on this is proving to be a head ache left and right. I'm doing it from 3000 miles away for now. For eg., getting her taxes done, setting things up with her tax preparer etc. Also, I have to consider what her total savings is so I can better help her make decisions for her long term living and care situation. At 85, she's in relatively good shape and lives at an independent/assisted living community right now, but wants to leave there when her lease is up in Aug. At least 3 times a week when I'm talking to her on the phone she's shrieking at me about how she "hates the old people with walkers and wheel chairs" and how the food is disgusting and so forth. She is not a big eater, so complains that the portions are too big...that the "Old" people talk about stuff that bugs her and the list of complaints goes on and on. I do try to make suggestions such as her skipping a few meals a week in the dining room, so she can have the pleasure of her own cooking and some quiet time but she doesn't like anything I suggest.
Back to her finances...it's hard to trust people, when you can't even trust your own son, but the thing with her is, she never has trusted anyone except her husband who pretty much took care of everything and for the most part, I understand her distrust. In the best of circumstances, getting older and having to rely on the kindness of family or friends is daunting and pretty scary. There are life transitions happening all the time but it's made worse if you don't have anyone nearby or consistent relationships with family members you feel connected with. IN her situation, she's pretty much estranged from everyone except me. I'm trying to keep a positive attitude about it all ~ but my stress levels are up each time I have to talk to her. In part, it's because I've been through this before with another family member although at some point that person was physically disabled and though unfortunate, it made things a lot easier to deal with because I could get more help, more assistance and they were less obstinate about those things though definitely remained difficult until the end.
Since I'm her POA, I want to make sure I handle everything correctly. I have told her, she's going to have to start trusting me and that means sharing information and that I'm not after anything she has, I'm just trying to make sure "we" get things done right. In our conversations, if I ask her a direct question, she'll dance the conversation in another direction or go into complaining mode about her life. In the same breath that I'm showing support toward her, listening or trying to help her with something, she says " I don't have anyone to help me, I'm alone" and so on. I regularly send her little items to cheer her up in between the times I call and when I do call often I spend 1-3 hours with her just going over the same exact things she always talks about. Getting down to brass tacks with her is proving difficult.
In her community, there's a person who does financial elder care services and his fee is 45 an hour...she hasn't paid him yet and complains that nothing is for free. I told her, the man has to make a living and right now I'm working on getting him paid. The guy basically told me he doesn't want to deal with her anymore and he's only been around her twice.
She does not have any present money problems but I don't know for certain what excactly she does have for the long term and this is where I'm starting to become concerned.
AS her POA, I know I have duties and one of them is to make sure her money is handled properly but what I'm not sure about is, if she is "able" to make her own decisions about things, where my authority on anything ends or begins. And if she comes to live near me, I know the prices for apts or independent living places is higher than they are where she's at. My husband is Ok with helping her but he knows that to have her come live with us will be a nightmare that will end up with me getting burned out and wants her to live in another place. I'm ok with this too and feel it's the best option.
I'm a professional caregiver and am caring for a lovely lady right now. She's reasonably pleasant even though she's in pain some of the time. I know I'm lucky because she has a mild temperament... as this hasn't always been the case with some of my other jobs.
I think when you are a caregiver for your own family member(s) the dynamics are different. If there's a history of family dysfunction, this doesn't change with age and often gets worse.

Thank you Heart2Heart! I've seen your postings on many topics. This is a nice site but confusing. Like there is no "reply" button so I guess responses just get shuffled in and land where ever? Also, you mentioned going to the top and clicking on "last" I'm not seeing it as an option. I'd also like to be able to keep track of my last posting or a certain topic, is that possible? Thanks!

Hi Gia... You certainly have a lot on your plate... I agree with your husband about your aunt not living with you (you're very fortunate to have him). As you know, caregiving for a family member is ten-fold compared to caregiving as a profession... true.   I think establishing (keeping) separate 'homes' upfront will make things easier in the long run while providing a healthy space/boundary between you and your aunt... I would assume, she will also take your POA responsibilities more seriously when it's not done in a personal setting (your home)....
Regarding past postings and topics, try clicking your profile icon (upper right) ... which brings you to 'My Account' and root around... Do you see 'News Feed', 'Activity', and 'Following'?
Get some good rest tonight and we'll keep writing...
Blessings!

Hi Heart2Heart nice catching up to you again! It has been been hard to keep up with the new format of this site and what is going on in my home with my husbands new diagnosis of cancer etc.etc. It least this site goes to your profile when I click on it.

Hi GiaGia, you can get to your profile by going up to the blue bar and clicking on the icon all the way to the right. In your case it is the heart. Just figured this one out.
It is very hard when you find out that someone in your family is a Narcissistic person. (Oh I know)
Meant in your case it is the little head Heart to Heart is the heart sorry.

Hi Heart2Heart nice catching up to you again! It has been been hard to keep up with the new format of this site and what is going on in my home with my husbands new diagnosis of cancer etc.etc. It least this site goes to your profile when I click on it.

Hi GiaGia, you can get to your profile by going up to the blue bar and clicking on the icon all the way to the right. In your case it is the heart. Just figured this one out.
It is very hard when you find out that someone in your family is a Narcissistic person. (Oh I know)

Sorry about the double post. I have no idea why.

Hi Cher... Seems like we're all exhausted with everything going on in our lives. I hope you're able to get some rest (???), but I imagine this is difficult... Yes, this new website is a challenge at times. I wonder if they're still working on it, or gave up?...
Getting over a cold/cough here...
Thinking of you and everyone on this Sunday afternoon... Hugs...

Enough is enough as soon as you find out someone, anyone at all is a narcissist, meaning they think only of themselves and take advantage of others in various ways. 

What you need to do is cut the apron strings and move on. If they choose to be greedy, they don't need you in their lives. I would move on and either move away, change the locks and my phone number as well as my email and other contact info. 

If you find yourself constantly drained from being around them and you probably don't even recognize it, you have your answer as to what's really going on and only you can put a stop to it. 

If you find yourself spending money on them that you really can't afford, they are fine taking advantage of you financially and financially abusing you. They often find clever ways of coercion and even trying to sell you stuff if they find out what you like and they'll find stuff they know you just can't live without, causing you to spend money you can't afford to spend. In some cases they put a time limit on the deal, maybe even sometimes a few minutes to an hour or they destroy the item or throw it out if you don't buy it within that time frame. They often play on knowing you have plenty of money and they have clever ways of knowing how to get it. You often don't realize they're taking advantage of you or financially abusing you until it's too late and in the end they have all your money and you're broke. That's because they try to be very pleasant about it while doing it so that you never catch on. Sadly, the person who's always broke in the end is you. This leaves you always wondering why you can never get ahead and get something you need such as a well needed car if you're currently without one. Saving for a car takes a long time but a narcissist who knows this will find some clever way to stop you by finding ways to get you to either lend them money or buy stuff from them. I think early on the narcissist knew I would never lend him a dime because I think he knew I'm tight with my money to the point I won't lend any. If you're on fixed income, there's always a reason to not lend out money and a narcissist who knows this figures that you won't lend them money but they may find clever ways to get you to buy stuff so that they still end up with the money you can't afford to spare. If you ask them if they'll help you when you're down to your last few bucks  for a loaf of bread, they may not be able to promise to help you when you need something and need that money back. I know what I'm talking about because this happened to me and I can tell you the facts about a narcissist. Dealing with one is bad enough but dealing with more than that is downright terrible and you should never subject yourself to being drained because a narcissist is a dry and empty well that never gives anything back. It's kind of like putting all of your treasures into a black hole but never getting anything back, leaving you false hope of getting something back if you contribute even more. 

My experience with narcissists 

I once knew someone who was a narcissist and he actually took financial advantage of others and also took advantage of others in other ways but especially financially abused others. He was a chain smoker who would spend his whole entire check on nothing but tobacco and then start living off the money of his live-in girlfriend. I didn't know this was secretly going on until all the laundry was aired out after the narcissist was kicked to the curb. It seems like he already knew each of his relationships would end sometime because of his behavior but he had a tendency to shift the blame on to his victims. After he was kicked to the curb, he tried to keep his victim's power chair, leaving her with his scooter that he tore apart.

The narcissist ended up moving in on someone else he probably already targeted. What ended up happening from what that person said is she wouldn't put up with his cross dressing or greedy behavior. I guess he moved in on the wrong person because according to her she would not tolerate his behavior or cater to him. I heard two different rumors about him living with this person and getting his own place but either way, he ended up killing himself smoking despite already having open heart surgery after having a heart attack. I don't think he's in heaven, there's no place for greedy people in heaven if they choose not to repent. 

Finally, your best life ever will be a life without the narcissist. Remember every single time you needed something but they never provided. Let's say you have a medical condition but they're unwilling to help in the event of an emergency or help you where help is needed without some kind of cost involved or (should I say strings attached?) 

My final thought on this is when they're done with you, they move on to someone else, someone unsuspecting. They never seem to learn from every failed relationship but I think they know each relationship will end when they have a back up plan and other unsuspecting victims already targeted. I think each unsuspecting victim probably goes through a grooming process to see how far the narcissist can go with the victim. Please keep this in mind and watch plenty of YouTube videos on narcissistic behavior and you'll see I'm right because I had past experience with narcissists. Don't hang around thinking they'll change, they usually never do and their behavior only worsens with time 

Once you have identified your parent as a narcissist, you need to understand that they will never change. Read up on it, google it, and understand it and embrace it. Only after you fully understand that your narcissist will never change, only then can you be at peace with it. And perhaps like me, you've even mourned the unconditional love of a mother that you never really had...

I just read a great book that described where narcissism comes from. While I've read much speculation that the lack of a bond between mother and child was responsible (I think it Was Freud), I find that hard to believe with my mothers case. This latest version I read discussed the disorder's origin as being generated by a non human life situation.

My mother grew up in the war, and was in London when the bombing was going on. Of course the German fighters dropping bombs didn't care about the collateral damage they caused. My Father also experienced a similar thing - though my fathers reaction was to become very co-dependent with my mother. And indeed, the one bonding life experience that they shared together, was growing up in the war.

While non of this excuses the emotional and physical abuse I experienced as a kid, it does help me forgive them for what they became.

Getting back on topic about caring for them, there's something I learned while recovering from my own co dependency issues. It was to "let go with love." I used it a lot when I was recovering from a relationship with a narc.

Today, I no longer feel like I have to answer the phone when she calls, and when she goes negative on me, I give a warning that I'll leave, and if she continues, I leave. One time I asked her "isn't there something you actually like in life?" And she started listing things unrelated to our conversation like sour cream, peaches, etc. Talk about being a bit shallow. She didn't include anything about people, her husband, experiences. I left shortly thereafter. I needed my own sanity back.

Oh my goodness this question is such a lifeline to me as I am feeling really down having just walked out on my Narcisstic parents who are 95 and living independently except of course for my support It's for my sanity I'm afraid . And my marriage . I feel I am cracking up at 63 being told its my duty and respect my parents . Their sense of entitlement is astonishing they treat and helpers like servants . Then they try to give me money. Which is what my mother always did to keep me quiet. Yuk. The fallout to siblings is cruel, we have all fallen out , nobody will discuss the family "secret" I'm just broken quite honestly . What a wonderful forum . Saved my bacon today!

MizVic, I really like your post and strategy. Walking away and not engaging in a discussion about the behaviour when you return is a great strategy that I have to definitely try. I am left as my mother's primary caregiver because no one else can stand her, and she is abusive. I put up with it until I can't any longer and then I snap. I've learned from this site that I have compassion fatigue and just can't do this any more.
I have to depersonalize her if I'm going to survive this journey. If I treat her like a client or patient who is difficult but needs treatment then I can do what needs to be done for her and I can walk away and take myself "off the clock". Trying to make her see that she behaves badly is futile because she will never change. I can only change my attitude and response to her. I have to try not to make it personal so it doesn't upset me. I also believe in prayer and have to pray that I can insulate myself from her.

Sunflower, that is such a good answer. Sometimes we do have to pull ourselves out of it to do the things that are needed. Sunsh1ne, I wouldn't take the money. Money can come with strings attached. I wouldn't take money from my parents, because I know it would give leverage that would take away from my independence. It would make it harder to say no when I need to.

I feel like this is an exact mirror of what I am asking................I don't know how to back away, I try but then I feel guilty. She says she is sorry but then it continues. Nasty hateful voicemails, pitiful behavior to get her way, "selective memory".....her behavior controls by life, feelings, motivation, it never ends..................

In the case of my parents, they've become more childlike and with that demanding, self-centered and sometimes pretty annoying. It drove me crazy for awhile, with them constantly calling my name when I stayed with them or calling my cell (only number they seem to remember) when I was out picking up their meds or getting groceries. I started to detach a bit from them during the day- would go to another floor and read or watch TV. Got up early and went for a walk. It was helpful to a point until my mother told me I was "cold". It gets easier to let things go once you set a limit- not returning a call immediately if it's not an emergency. I told my mom I would leave the room if she continued to say things like "I wish I was dead". "No one cares". and I did.

You dear people help me feel normal. My entire family including almost all extended ones were and are narcissistic. There were eight of us, three girls and five boys. Even now when I get a birthday or seasonal cards, they are about themselves! No matter how nice I am or how I ask and try to plan things with them, they cannot do it, but they expect me there when THEY plan something. I quit going to most holiday gatherings because I come home confused. I need to be with them, but I know how they judge me how they think my behavior is "not like theirs." When with them they brag in a subtle way, and make certain I get the message that they are in still in charge or in control putting me back in the "place" I was in while growing up. My story is long and complicated and hard to put in words but I will try to condense it.

No, they don't change and for years I thought something was wrong with me because I surely DIDN'T AND DON'T THINK LIKE THEY DO. I am a public school teacher who became a specialist in individual & family counseling. Boy did I understand and lapped up the descriptions and theories of families, was very good at working with people, but still, even understanding my family's behavior, I long for them to be loving, understanding & kind and can't shake the feeling it is my fault. They don't visit, have lunches or trips together, only see them when I have them over and supply everything and do all the work. Several don't even speak.

I lost my two sisters in 2014. The older one was left money by her farmer husband, from an extremely dysfunctional family, who worked her and himself into bad health, mistreated her and shaped her into what he wanted her to be. This was easy because she was completely dependent on our mother to the point of being socially inhibited.. Mom, educated to the 8th grade, tried hard to be good mother as she saw it and bring us up well. She made sure we went to church and thought it would do what she was not educated enough to do and she herself had no experience of being in a loving family. I just remember the church helped me feel more guilty although I tried to fit in and do what was required to be a GOOD person. Mom was very strict and due to her alcoholic father's treatment and that her mother was pregnant with her before she married, all had impacts. She never allowed pet or nick names, which we invented, etc. We were extremely creative and we invented all kinds of things. But Mom protected us to the point of over doing it. She was musical and her dream was to write music so the brothers found instruments and played by ear. I had both art and musical talent but was not allowed to have lessons because I had to bother a neighbor, who said she was happy to have me practice the piano at her home. Later an artist teacher found me and gave me free art lesson which boosted my self confidence somewhat. We were always told not to bother other people and still have issues with lack of confidence in ourselves from it, yet narcissism flourishes..

My oldest brother was a fine builder, highest grades in class when graduating from HS, went to the air force but always thought and felt that the rest of us owed everything we had to him. He is in his 90's now and still thinks that any money we get, other than wages, should be given to him to control. He and my younger sister used being late and not finishing projects as a means of control. Both sisters suffered depression and had social issues until they left home and tried to work through it. The younger one had a physical & mental breakdown while the older became an extention of her controlling husband. We appeared to be unusually gifted though untrained, yet a normal family. Older brother and wife, along with their daughter and one other brother big in church as most of them are, ended up with most of older sister's inheritance. We are old now and do not have the closeness we need and should have developed growing up.

Closed family borders and over protection in families when children are young can wreak havoc on them all their lives and especially when they are old. Situations like this is fertile ground for narcissism to develop. They will deal with it the entire time and lack the happiness they deserve from not being educated about families, about themselves, family interaction and their family histories.

Anitarhoney.... Seems like the perfect storm for a dysfunctional family. I hope somehow you can realize that you have every right to be who you are no matter the background ... It's difficult, but your birthright is the very same as everyone on this planet. You deserve all the happiness you can hold... In peace and love... Blessings!

The whole pampering vs. neglect thing was brought into clarity for me after my divorce from a 38 year marriage. When I had our first child, a girl, I was ecstatic over the moon in love with this child...and I over pampered her. I didn't realize what I was doing at the time because my (then) husband had such a horrid childhood that I was determined MY children would never feel that level of hate from us. As the years went by I had a son. My husband would always take up for our teenage daughter and let her get away with so much. I tried to be fair but was always over ridden. It would take a book to tell you about all that happened but suffice it to say that now years later and after the divorce my daughter will not speak to anyone in the family-even her own daughter whom I raised. My husband was the other extreme, abused as a child and now thinks the world owes him. So yes the two opposite ends can still create a narcissist .