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hey, Just want to let you know that I understand what you are going through. Though my mom hasn't always been manipulative of me, I am experiencing this now with her care. I want to tell you that boundaries are the number one thing you want to put in place from the get-go (I did not and it's been hard doing it later in our caregiving journey.) Also, explore this with your therapist for sure, but my therapist has reminded me many times that I am under no obligation to care for my mother especially if it is compromising my mental, physical and emotional health and my relationships with my own children and husband.
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A two month European vacation yet money is tight?! How do they explain that? Is there dementia or just stupidity?

I would make it clear to them that Medicaid is their answer when they run out of money. They can answer to the officials during the five year look back review.

Get away while you can. This won’t get better as they lose more and more of their faculties. It’s not on you to take care of them even if they were good to you. Stop answering calls and being available. Maybe there’s one day a week you speak to or see them. It’s not doing your mental health any favors.

They need to find a new plan that doesn’t involve you.
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Boundaries. Prioritize boundaries with your counselor and put that plan into action. Take back the life you worked so hard to build.
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"My mom has asked me to be executor of their will but won’t tell me where it is."

I would refuse if I were you. The cost of being involved with them and their will is too high financially and emotionally while they are alive. So many posters have said their parents threaten to change their wills, cut them out, pitting one child against another, etc..

Even after they die, being executor of a will can become a time-consuming nightmare, dealing with probate court, having relatives accusing you of financial abuse, thefts, etc.

Don't get trapped.
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"I want to move away"

Sometimes this can actually be the solution.

A relative of mine was being maipulated by pushy entitled in-laws. Many people advised moving. Eventually did. This ended the problem.

Being out of the locality, past a daytrip visit distance, can be an excellent ready-made excuse.
"No I'can't. It's too far".
It gives a script for the new boundary.

Yet, there are many posters that still feel that enormous pressure, still have fear, obligation & guilt (F.O.G). It's WITHIN them & therefore goes with them, even if they move.

People provide all sorts of care. From calling up for social chats - to one full day a week (driving, appointments, shopping etc) - to traveling 6 hours & staying one full week every month - staying for 3 months visits at a time. If this works for them, works for BOTH sides, great! Honest, giving, fair.

What is NOT great is when the care equation gets skewed by F.O.G. When the giver does not feel able to be honest with what they can give.

How much do WANT to be doing for your folks?

It's ok to be honest with yourself.

Maybe this is a lower amount than now, much lower or even zero? OK

Or maybe some help or involvment would work as long as you are free to be honest & say no when you need to. This will take practice & energy.

I have reached a good stage with my LO where I feel more like an Advocate than Caregiver. I now feel free of that FOG & able to say no. It took time!

However, I do have some strong personalitoes amoung my in-laws. In the future, if I found myself continually under pressure I would move out of range rather than live with continued drama.
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Hothouseflower May 2023
I like your response.. You gave me something to think about.
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The running joke in my family was, where is Lea gonna move to next to escape her toxic parents? Europe? Yup.....as an only child with the only grandchildren, my parents followed me all over the country to be "close by" to "help me out" which translated into ME helping THEM out. Plus, my mothers passive-aggressive communication and behavior techniques were such that she was IMPOSSIBLE to deal with. Much like it sounds your mother is with the Silent Treatment and Fit Throwing. Where's the Fainting Couch, ladies, eh? 🙄

What you need to do is go low contact with your parents. Set down some VERY STRICT RULES you never break and then NEVER BREAK THEM. Because mother is waiting for you to crack.....for that tiny chip to open up after she Throws A Fit, allowing her entry into your world once again, thru FOG: Fear Obligation and Guilt. That's the manipulative pattern. Ask for something, you say no, she pitches a fit, you acquiesce, aha! She gets her way, her mission is accomplished. Meanwhile, she's cruising the Mediterranean while you're popping Tums like candy, trying to figure out how to finance HER next whim? I don't think so. The gravy train dries up here and now, ma.

Read this article and get some strategies on how to recognize and cope with passive-aggressive loved ones who display narcissistic traits:

https://lifelessons.co/personal-development/covertpassiveaggressivenarcissist/

Realize it's not your job to be your parents retirement fund or their entertainment committee now. They are in the wrong here, not you. You are entitled to have your own life and they are expected to live a life within the parameters of their own INCOME. Period. If that doesn't work for them, I recommend playing the lottery. They'll have a better chance winning IT than getting anymore $$$ from you.
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This is just so stressful to read! Please start distancing yourself from them. They are definitely living lives of “freedom.” Their finances must still be flowing to go on a two month European cruise. You do not need the chronic stress of their demands and behaviors. I know it’s difficult, but not making yourself available to them and eventually relocating will save your mental and physical health. My heart goes out to you. There are definitely aging parents with extreme expectations and toxic behaviors that drive family, “friends”, caregivers, medical professionals, and acquaintances away.
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Wow. Be up front and tell them you won’t be paying for their them in their old age. They’d better figure it out.
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Lizhappens May 2023
Amen!
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I missed the part where you were selfish for wanting the life they forced you to build without their help. When their money runs out, they can turn to Medicaid. Saying money is tight and then going on a two-month Eurocruise tells me just how self-indulged they are. When they want to go to dinner, make it clear it’s NO or Dutch treat and tell the waiter immediately it’s separate checks.

You are anything but selfish because you are asking that question in this situation. Im not usually do harsh but when you needed them, they put you on the street so if you do the same, it’s what they should expect. Go see them on your terms, do dinner on your terms, offer to find the name and number if a good elder card attorney and go on a cruise yourself!!
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You do Not have to take them out to dinner . People who say " They dont Have any Money " are the people who usually do have Money . You need to turn that around and say " money is tight for me I am saving up to take a trip . " Yes boundaries are tough But I would keep saying " no I can not do that - Hire someone . "
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LSRSsa-please keep in mind

--the more you do, the more they will expect and take for granted.
--if they call you selfish, tell them they are using you, and you're protecting yourself.
--if they call with a problem, do not volunteer, put it back on them by asking "what do YOU plan to do about it?"
--if they outright ask you to do things, tell them you can't (no time, no money, don't know how). Tell them to call a professional, hire someone, etc.
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Wow. You parents’ behaviour is appalling.

My mother never extended me the privilege of boundaries. She had many of her own. But your parents... wow.

If the aforementioned fibs aren’t your style, consider straight up asking them why they think you should support their choice to retire young. Why they think you exist to serve them. Why they think you are responsible for them. Why they think you shouldn’t have the opportunity to ignore them, retire and travel, as they did.

You see, I’m struggling with realizations about my upbringing, but will never get any closure because of my mother’s dementia. I would love to hear my mother’s answers. Or see her response to being asked.

Your parents may deny their own actions, make excuses, or blow their stacks. Their response may help you to determine how to proceed with them. Or without them.
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LSRSsa May 2023
My mother has a long history of throwing fits or not talking to me when I don’t do what she wants. It’s a relief when she’s not talking to me but she always comes back, She will be nice at first - but there are never any apologies or honest conversations - and I’ll foolishly believe things could be better but then the demands start and we are back where we started. I’m fed up with it.
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When both of my parents, at separate times "hinted" about me financially propping them up, I made is crystal clear that I would take over ALL of their finances and get them on a budget with their income first, then we could talk about dipping into my finances.

They both had tantrums of Emmy quality performance. I repeated this every single time the subject came up. They knew what my boundaries were concerning me financially propping them up and they decided that me telling them how they would spend their money wasn't of interest. Just what I thought, they just wanted what they wanted regardless of how others were impacted.

No. It is a complete sentence that doesn't require any explanations.

Best of luck!
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LSRSsa May 2023
I don’t understand how grown adults can behave this way.
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In my case, after getting phone calls three days running from my mom that asked that I drive across the five boroughs of NYC to Westchester to attend to "emergencies" that were anything but, I sat her down and said "mom, I can't do this anymore".
She asked what "this" was. She had NO idea that "this" was a problem. That was going to cause me to lose my job and my apartment.

I laid it out in words of one syllable. (It turned out that, although mom was still "sharp as a tack" she had actually had a stroke and had Mild Cognitive Impairment. Couldn't plan anything at all.

I recommend telling them plainly "no" you won't be doing their errands any longer. That they will need to make other arrangements.
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NO, so mom/dad, what do you not understand….the “N” or the “O”???

You probably can benefit from doing practice run throughs on conversations ahead of time. Like this long weekend, write out a script or two of a future convo with them based on what you know their Euro vacay / tour stops were:
you: Mom/dad saw that your trip included visiting Viennese chocolate shoppes. How was that?
mom/dad: chocolate was very….melty, rich, expensive, yum, whatever
you: I’m looking at Viennese chocolate recipes online and will be spending free time on trying some. I’m looking forward to it!
mom/dad: really?
you (quickly): yes, So I cannot be taking you to xyzzy
Rinse and repeat. If you need to role play to get your talking points out and firmly with the folks, find a friend or coworker to do this with. It doesn’t need to be a friend. You’d be surprised that someone from work or a neighbor will be great at this for you and very sympathetic.

BTW it is 100% NOT SELFISH for you to feel this way.
and
Your purse & wallet needs to be for you & your expenses 1st & foremost.
Euro vacay = no way I’m supporting that nonsense.
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I would be crystal clear and let them know you will not be giving them any money. If they don't accept this, I would walk away. Even if they do understand and accept, I would still say go out and live your life. Move away or travel if you want. Your parents could live another 15-20 years and if they haven't taken the steps to ensure their financial security, that is their responsibility.

Even if they had been supportive, I would still set boundaries as they are making bad financial decisions. Some many people feel guilted into helping parents who made bad financial decisions, even when it means that they will be in a similar, or worse, situation when they get older.

Enjoy your well earned and deserved life and do all the things you enjoy. Your parents will be forced to find a way to manage.
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They’re on a euro cruise. They def have money. Plus kicking you out because you got pregnant.

I would assume your child probably doesn’t want to deal with them either.

You don’t have to. Just don’t with helping them on anything.
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LSRSsa May 2023
Nobody wants to deal with them. They do things like go from church to church, complaining they don’t feel welcome or that nobody does anything for them… their behavior is inexplicable to me. They start out with great relationships with kind people and then burn all their bridges.
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Thank you for the huge morale boost everyone. I get stuck going in circles in my head with this. I’ve seen on these forums that many people become trapped in difficult situations with family members and I don’t want that for myself. I do not want to be trapped. “Running away” is probably not the answer but it sure sounds nice. I’ve made some good progress with boundaries but I’ve still got quite a bit of work to do. I definitely don’t want to sign anything and become financially liable for anything. Thank you for the heads up on that. My mom has asked me to be executor of their will but won’t tell me where it is. I am not asking any questions and I will keep myself as uninvolved as possible. I’ve worked hard for many years and I just want some peace and quiet… and no more heavy burdens. Thank you enormously for the confidence boost.
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Way2tired May 2023
Good for you !! Keep it up . Boundaries sooner rather than later is a good thing.
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The child to adult relationship ended years ago. You are buying into a lie that says you must put up with the manipulation because they are your parents and you are their child and you owe them. Everyone is an adult now. Be clear you WERE a child you are NOW an adult - the umbilical cord is cut. Nobody owes anything to anyone. Parents are responsible for training their child how to be an adult and then let them go. You have proven despite the lack of support you received you became an adult.

Do you have friends? let them be your support group besides the counselor. you can talk all day long about boundaries but it means nothing until you put them into action. And if all you’re doing all this time with a counselor is talk only then you’re wasting money. Honey you gotta put it into action. You can do this. the initial first step it’s hardest, but it gets much easier after that. the battle of giving in over the years just gets worse and worse. The battle of standing up for yourself is fairly short term once you set that line in the sand - it is what it is and as long as you stick to that there’s gonna be a lot less banging on your door.

If they’re unhappy, well, really think about that - they’re not happy they can’t manipulate you into doing what they want you to do? Where is the adult logic that says you have to agree to that? They’re the ones who are acting like a responsible children now. if they choose not to be responsible it’s on them. It is not on you.
Get the book boundaries by cloud and Townsend and then do it. And call a friend and celebrate every time you have a little victory moving forward. Once you start breaking that unhealthy relationship up it’ll be much easier for you to move on and continue to be adult and let them be responsible for themselves. Good luck
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“I know it sounds selfish……”. WHAT? FULL STOP RIGHT HERE.

I recently realized, and said to another poster here, that SELF CARE and SELF-ISH, are two VERY DIFFERENT THINGS.

Consider. You left your parents’ home at their command, under painful and difficult circumstances, found a way to educate and care for yourself, and now feel concerned because you want to use YOUR money to provide for YOUR care and comfort? Does that really appear negatively selfish to you? It certainly shouldn’t.

Consider. Have they taught you by their actions, to believe them and to trust and believe that what they say is the truth?

They are “not kind to you”. YOU are kind to you. As WELL you should be!

What a splendid job you’ve done, by raising and ultimately elevating YOURSELF, when they denied you the sympathy and compassion and generosity of spirit THAT THEY OWED YOU.

I wish I’D been your mother. Please be glad that you were able to parent yourself.

Don’t plan to move away out of fear, or because of fear that they can still damage you. You have the RIGHT to interact (OR NOT), NO RESPONSIBILITY to pay for anything they CHOOSE not to pay for themselves, and AND NO RESPONSIBILITY for kindnesses they chose not to extend to you when you needed them most.

Start today to detach in your mind, and your conscience. You are using the services of a counselor, and hopefully a good one. Use what you hear, and don’t second guess that your good care of yourself isn’t what you really deserve.

My situation? Parents who knew no better, allowed the more damaged of the two of them to run the other, were controlling until I did develop a small but powerful physical separation. I ultimately developed a somewhat healthy and positive relationship with both of them that was comfortable and manageable for all three of us. If you want to, that may happen for you. Or MAY NOT. Your choice either way.

You can DO THIS ON YOUR OWN TERMS. PLEASE, prove me right.
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There is a book Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud. Its Christian based. My daughter read it and the one thing she got from it was..

When saying NO, you are not responsible for the reaction you receive.

On the forum we have a member who says...No is a one word sentence.

My mantra...I am here to help people find the way, not be the way.
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Your post makes me angry for you.

How long have you been seeing the counselor? Are they helping you to do more than just discuss boundaries?
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SnoopyLove May 2023
I’m thinking the same thing, CTTN. How effective is this counselor at her job? Maybe OP should get her brother’s counselor, if he has one, because he apparently is keeping a safe and sane distance! Maybe get tips from bro about that!
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HI LSR - I'm sorry to hear how beaten down you feel after years of stress from your parents. I can completely relate to that. It's impossible to get through to selfish, manipulative parents, especially when they're both like that. But, what I've also gained from reading your post was that you're a strong survivor and you've succeeded in accomplishing many goals in your life time - that's really impressive and something to be proud of!

Actually, the fact that your parents have moved near you doesn't have to mean that you need to be available to them - or pay their way. You said that your counselor advised you to set boundaries. If you need to, one way is to fib a little - in order to ease your own life - such as, you can start setting the tone when you speak to them and let them know that your job is requiring you to travel a lot - you could be "out of town" for extended periods of time - getting ready for your next business trip, etc. So, despite your living in closer proximity to them, if you're working out of town frequently, then technically, you're not there. And, if you need to tell them in conversation that your finances are tight and you are just making ends meet and you're concerned about your own future, then they cannot expect something you don't have to give.

I've also had to handle many of life's challenges without family support (and still am) - so I really understand that - and it's not easy. Please be kind to yourself and continue being the strong support to yourself, as best you can.
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LSRSsa May 2023
Haha! I have been thinking about the “fibs”. To create personal space for myself. It’s a good idea and I plan to do that from now on.
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LSR. Welcome to the Forum. We have a ton of new members of late, and that's a GOOD THING. Your problems are NOT a good thing, but the fact you are addressing them is going to be such a relief.

First of all I am thrilled to hear you are seeing a counselor, because it would have been my only answer in a situation like this. Read Henry Cloud's book Boundaries, as well, as I would bet it has been recommended to you. Will show you that you aren't alone.

It's lovely to DISCUSS boundaries, but it is IMPLEMENTING them that will work, and that's ALL UP TO YOU. No one can do it for you. It's a CHOICE you have to make lest you be a volunteer victim of what you have described. You are strong enough to do this and you have the support of a good therapist.

I have BEEN there in terms of being a caregiver who allowed my tendencies to spill over into my life. I had to learn to say no. And I can tell you it is TOUGH at first, but gets easier. As human beings we are creatures of habit. Bad habits need to be broken.

If you enable your parents dependence on you now you are well and truly done for.

You will have a lot of anxiety/fear when you begin to say "no", and the first times you do it will get a bad reaction almost certainly from your parents. But bad reactions don't kill. You will survive, and you will become less and less vulnerable each time, will feel more and more strong. You will soon enough learn to simply shrug it off and move on.

Learn to embrace your inner "bad little girl". Learn to love her and nurture her. Learn to say "No. Sorry, but just NO." Go to the mirror right now and begin to practice. Just say NO.

Lastly, listen to the Podcast Dr Laura's Question of the Day. In a few minutes a day she can teach you what it is to be strong for yourself.

Again. Your responsibility is to choose: Be the whining victim of bullying parents or be your own woman with a full and joyful life. I wish you the best in making the choice.
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If what Joann said doesn’t work,
I would probably just go no contact .
You don’t owe them . You don’t have to take care of them or give them money. I advise that you do not become POA either . I would allow the county or state to take over for them when they can not care for themselves . Never sign any paperwork saying you will be guarantor at a facility .
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Way2tired May 2023
I’d like to add …..no more dinners with them .
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My first thought - Money is tight...but they are on a TWO MONTH EUROPEAN CRUISE? Those two things do not go together.

My second thought - it is not selfish to have your own life. You have built this life - without help. They weren't even there for you when you needed them the most. And now they believe it is your responsibility to take care of them while they - what travel the world unencumbered while you pay the bills they can't afford because they spent their money on lavish expenses?

When I read your post it made me angry. At your parents. You'll have to forgive me, but it sounds to me as if the selfish ones in this scenario are your parents, not you.

They have the money to take a two month cruise - they have money to pay for their own expenses. You should not have to bail them out financially in any way. And if your dad is in poor health, traveling sounds like it would be very complicated to me. Your mom won't take care of him - so does she feel that is your responsibility while she continues to live her life?

All due respect to everyone in this scenario - if you become their solution - they won't find another one. If they need more help - they can transition to assisted living. You do not have to be the person that is the answer to their problems. They sound like they are perfectly capable of figuring it out on their own.

It's ok to set boundaries and tell them no. Take care of yourself and step away from contributing to their drama in anyway. You don't have to facilitate their need to continue to be independent. They will take whatever you give them. And it sounds like they are already draining your energy.
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Way2tired May 2023
That’s right blue eyed . These people don’t want to give up their lifestyle , they want the daughter to help them maintain it. I get angry at this as well. People get old and they should acknowledge and adjust to limitations from health or financial reasons . It’s not the adult children’s responsibility to help them with a false independence . But this seems very common these days .
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You need to be blunt with them. I did not ask u to live near me, if you can afford cruises and where your living you don't need me to support you, and I am not. You chose to kick me out at 16. I was able to raise a child and go to college with no help from you. I am working so I can retire and be able to travel. I am not giving you any of what I have worked for. Financially ur on your own. Stop traveling, get cheaper place to live. Sorry but I am not your ATM. I need to support myself as I have since I was 16.

And why do they need to go out to eat, IL supplies their meals.
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lkdrymom May 2023
This is exactly what needs to be said, then you need to block them on your phone.

I can't believe a grown adult would even ask this. These people threw you out in your time of need and now expect you to supplement their extravagant lifestyle. How is there any other answer then NO (maybe HECK NO).
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