Felony for flirting in Senior Living?

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Felony for flirting in Senior Living?

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So we have an issue split down the middle. One side assumes your dad is innocent and the other side assumes he is "assaulting" female residents. Here is my take on it. You should ask to speak to the women involved first before you make any assumptions. It frankly DOES NOT MATTER whether your father "touched" without consent or if it was just words: some one is uncomfortable-period. If you grew up with your dad you are used to his behavior, others might find it intrusive. Personally, I don't like people in my space and am uncomfortable around it. I find it not to be endearing but obnoxious. The lady(ies) in question may feel they have no say in what happens. That generation just got on with things and didn't talk about them. So don't make an assumption either way until you talk to someone about it. As someone else said MC facilities are a lot higher priced so tread carefully.

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Obviously, he is being allowed to mingle about and despite your word friendly, there are complaints being made or staff noticing his friendly hands. He is not too demented to understand no touching and they cannot watch him or they are stating his level of care is now one on one. Yes, they have to present a report to any receiving facility, folks it is just like when teacher told you about Johnny's behavior, but he only dies it at school. It is time your family decide what you can do with your father, it is very common for any senior with declining cognition to focus on other things. I doubt this is new, consider what he was doing at home. Placement is not for everyone and if he is handsy, he might even do this with staff, I have endured my share of harassment from aging men who only think of what is declining, so you might speak with his doctor about this, or you will be taking him home and need to watch out for him as he decline doing same with relatives. This is all part of dementia, not everyone has this, but I have had wives complain of their spouses being too different and reports of using prostitutes, or watching pornography, they were appalled at the difference in their behavior. I would take it seriously, no shake down, if he take advantage of another resident, they are telling you they are bound to call Police, and there is other families they must protect, no different than boys will be boys, and look the other way while he is being friendly. Also, they can just tell you to come get him. Be careful unless you are ready to watch him 24-7.

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Verbal-only flirting should not be a felony, but unwanted physical contact might be. Your father may need a higher degree of supervision. If his current facility does not offer closer supervision, look for a facility that does. That greater supervision will cost more than basic AL placement, but might be less than a private aide.

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The question is is the person(s) he’s flirting with reciprocating? If so there’s not much anyone can do (older folks are allowed to have fun too) short of telling them to keep their clothes on outside of the rooms. I’ve never heard of a sitting fee or any fee to keep anyone especially someone with dementia from doing things. It does sound like they don’t want to deal with him and FYI there wouldn’t be a felony/jail - he is not of sound mind and the director should know these basic things. I would however, check in with the ladies he’s been in contact with and just make sure he’s not doing stuff when he’s not supervised (by you, the family, I’ve known older folks esp with Alzheimer’s or dementia to “behave” when family’s around, much like small children who tear the house up til mom or dad walk in and they’re suddenly angels) find out as much as you can and request a copy of his records. This seems like it can go one of two very different ways but regardless I do think you should find a new place for him, one that specializes in his ailments.

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Same issue with my spouse. He has been declared incompetent to protect him from getting in trouble. I’m paying for a sitter at $22 per hour. Most of that time is watching him eat or sleep! I’m trying to negotiate fewer hours of supervision.

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Have you asked dad to sign off on you having access to his records? I would want to see the incident reports. What Dad describes as flirting, if unwanted, the other party may describe differently. Some states have higher level charges for harassment of people over 65. People's standards as to sexual harassment have changed since when your dad was young. I would ask, has he been shown the incident reports and does he understand how serious this is? With the first one, they should have given simple rules to avoid, did this happen?

It may be the other party is incompetent, and cannot be deemed to consent, and someone has to explain to dad

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Ask for a document of all of the "incidents" of his flirting and of what they consisted - dates, times, persons involved. Flirting is not a felony.

Is he kissing her without her permission - or does she reciprocate? (Then it would be consensual if she agrees.)

He does not need a sitter unless he is groping somebody, is a peeping Tom, etc.

My guess is that there are indications that his behavior may be heading beyond verbal flirting - which is why they are asking for a sitter to monitor his behavior.

Finally - it may be that he is ready for a higher level of care now.

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If the lady is incompetent, she may not be able to consent. Everyone involved needs more facts.

(6)

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Time to move him.

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Flirting is just that. A smile, a nod of the head, a wink or small talk. I can’t see any care facility being concerned with flirting. It sounds to me like there are bigger issues at play. I would ask for more details, a conversation with the person in charge to see exactly why they are saying your dad is a problem. If this was my mother, I would want something done about your dad. No one wants their mother being sexually harassed by an aggressive man.The lady in question might not realize that he is acting inappropriately or that she has rights to refuse his advances.

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I, too, would ask for a written report and an in-person discussion with the director (or over a video call). If your father is not experiencing dementia, he might need to be present for a discussion at some point. Everyone at the facility needs to feel safe, but I think the facility needs to handle this with more consideration for everyone involved. Threats and scare tactics are no more appropriate than unwanted touching and attention. My mother in assisted living had a quite serious "flirting" situation with a male resident, instigated by her, that had her leaving her room at night. The male resident did not welcome her attentions. This happened during lockdown when no one other than residents and staff could go in or out of the facility. It was highly unusual behavior for her and the director asked that we test her for a urinary track infection. When that came back negative, the director told us it was time for memory care. However, the residence had a COVID outbreak and all residents were confined to their rooms for two weeks. Mother's behavior stopped and has not returned. There is also a silent alarm on her door that notifies staff if she leaves her room at night. I also agree that it may be time for memory care for your father, if the behavior escalates. That is our plan for our mother should her behavior return.

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Please consider this from the point of view of the lady's family. You see him as friendly and flirty. They may see him as dangerous and a sexual predator. Her family may see their "mom" as incapable of understanding or knowing how to protect herself. They still see her as "mom" and maybe still see her as "Dad's wife" - whether or not Dad is still alive. They don't see her as a lonely woman who might appreciate to company of a man and even relish romance. In their view, your father is making unwanted advances and needs to stop - now.

I suspect that the family of the woman has confronted the administration about your father's actions. They want it stopped now. So, you are being notified that something must be done. Interestingly, the facility hasn't considered locks that only staff can operate, especially at night. It seems that the facility should be able to keep your father and the lady in question in separate activities during the day. Though it may sound harsh, maybe your father needs to be locked into his room at night so he doesn't wander.

Please consult a lawyer that specializes in elder care for specifics about your situation. He/She can give you specific guidance based on the laws in your area.

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That is certainly a concern and why I suggested a men’s unit. Facilities get into serious trouble if they don’t protect their residents. For reasons I can’t get into in detail, I am aware of a situation very much like this and the spouse moved the resident to another facility without warning the new facility about the very troubling actions of the spouse. The new facility had to involve the police soon after the “flirtatious” resident arrived. I can’t condone sneaking residents around, but if this is the “solution” that the facility came up with and there are no other options, this facility is not the right place for this individual on many levels.

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That sounds very strange. I work in senior living, and we have numerous couples that met in the facility. We even had one that got married. The only concern is that both members in any relationship are consenting and able to consent. Just to make sure no one is being taken advantage. Just because someone is elderly, doesn't mean they no longer want companionship (or even sex too). Especially if a person has lost their long term spouse, they are lonely or unaccustomed to being alone. I would ask the facility for a copy of the "Residents Rights" form, and there should be some statements about their freedoms. As long as both parties are consenting, if not, then he must leave them alone. The women also must be free to live without someone hitting on them constantly.

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"Flirting" happens all the time between residents in long-term care; this is not a crime. If he is touching another resident in any way, it might be considered more than "flirting."

A long-term care community cannot require a family to hire a sitter/private duty staff to stay with their loved one. The "incident report" that they refer to is NOT part of a resident's medical record; therefore, they could not give those out to another community if you were moving him. These "incident reports" are used for tracking purposes. Whenever an incident happens (falls, situation between residents), these are filled out to track things like the time of day involved (staff); they are tracking anything that may show a pattern. Again these reports are not shown to families because they are not part of the medical record.
If your dad is doing nothing more than flirting without any physical contact with another resident, you have nothing to worry about. If the home wants him moved, they must issue a 30-day discharge notice. In that notice, the home must include a location for him to go (Federal Law); the place included in the discharge letter must be a safe place. If you are not happy with the location, you have the 30-days to find a new place or appeal the discharge. If you choose to appeal the discharge, I recommend reaching out to your local Long Term Care Ombudsman Office for assistance.

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Individuals with a diagnosis of memory impairment cannott be charged with "behavioral" acts (other than being baker acted for violent episodes). If this were the case, millions of seniors would be apprehended every day. A sitter can be of great value and will only be needed duing peek hours. ie; when he's feeling frisky. Finding just the right sitter/caregiver is the most important thing family members face when overseeing the care of a loved one. The challenge is having to interview so many applicants. When it's through, you'll find it was worth it!
I wrote a little about this in my last pubilcation, REMEMBERING WHAT I FORGOT. (K. Allen)
I pray it will be a helpful tool for you and your fellow family members.

Ken

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There is a lot of disparity, murky disparity, between "flirting" and "inappropriate/non consensual touching". While your father's intentions might merely be friendly and flirty, the perception of his actions by the woman (or her guardians) he flirts with may not align. Furthermore, consent is compromised among individuals with cognitive disabilities like dementia or otherwise.

The facility is responsible for any resident who may not feel safe or is not fully consenting to this behavior and that is where they are coming from.

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Sorry this is nothing more than a shakedown as op originally suspected

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I write from the patients perspective. I was diagnosed with Early Onset ALZ 5 yrs ago in two weeks. My mother was DON for a Catholic Skilled Nursing Facility. Now, to be honest this lesson was taught to me back in the 70's. My mother said, you can always move a Resident out of a Facility. You can tell them you are bringing him home after you've moved him out. Then go to a new facility and don't tell them he's been in another facility. If he's just flirting and talking, so what he's 90 yrs old. Now if the situation was he was physically assaulting other patients, Yes, he could find himself being interviewed by the police. Flirting is something men and women have been doing for millenniums.
My thoughts and that and a couple of bucks will get you a cup of coffee.

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YAY jfbctc. It sounds like your early onset alz has definately not gotten any worse. Good for you......and your Mom was a smart woman. I see where you get it from!

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Without reading the other answers yet, I would say that is B.S. If he was in memory care, they would expect some overstepping of boundaries and they would not threaten a separate fee. Perhaps it is because he is in a senior facility? But has anything more than flirting happened? Why would this facility think it necessary to supervise your father's behavior? Are they chaperoning everyone?

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Is he actually touching / groping these women or is he just flirting? There is a huge difference. What incidents have been filed against him while in assisted living? Have you gotten copies of these reports? If his libido is in overdrive, you can talk with his doctor, explain the situation and get him on a med to curtail his friskiness. It is not uncommon for folks with dementia to exhibit signs of hypersexuality.

I will tell you that the facility has you over a barrel with this....so be careful how you proceed. I complained when I was finally allowed in to see my mother since the covid lockdown, she was disheveled.. her hair was dirty, her clothes were stained and on inside out and her legs were swollen and no one noticed. I took pics of all, emailed the director and asked them "exactly what are we were paying for?" and all of the sudden mom needs to leave assisted living and go to memory care. We have no recourse and there is no way to transfer mom elsewhere without the facilities talking to one another.

If I were you, I would tell his facility that you are taking their concerns seriously and will work with his doctor on adjusting his meds. You're going to have to play nice so that he doesn't get kicked out and put on a "list".

Good Luck!

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Frankly if the facility has not already pursued this course with his physician, they aren’t anticipating his needs and working in good faith to provide the quality of care he needs and deserves.
I agree, speak with the primary care provider or nursing

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Call the Ombudsman’s office for the area this facility is in and report that they are preventing you from moving your loved one. While I am not personally familiar with Oklahoma’s assisted living regulations, this sounds sketchy. If he is not competent it’s highly unlikely someone will prosecute him for a felony, if this is even a felony level situation.

Also, I would look for another facility independently of help of where he is at now. You may need to seriously consider an all male facility, or find a facility that specializes in the specific care he needs. Not all assisted living or long term care facilities are prepared to care for an individual with special dementia care needs. Moving him to an all male unit will greatly reduce his interactions with women and ultimately relieve the need for a full time companion

Be very skeptical as you tour new facilities, the Admissions office will promise you everything but the actual care provided may vary. Ask to speak with the nursing staff if at all possible.

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Is there such a facility? I have never heard of one and I am curious how you would find one.

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I have a question: Have them describe to you what they consider inappropriate touching. Does the lady object to his flirtations? She may very well love the attention.

Unfortunately, many younger people don't realize that feelings don't change as we age. Ninety-year-olds fall in love as much as a twenty-year-old. And physical contact is important, dementia or not.

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If the woman is competent and did not object to the "flirting" It is not likely the facility would care. More likely, the woman is incompetent -- in which case she cannot give consent OR she objects to the flirtation.
Unconsented to touching is never acceptable. The touching doesn't have to inappropriate to be problematic -- It just has to be unwanted

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You said flirting. They’re demanding you pay thousands extra for a sitter. For flirting
This is a good example of something many people already know. Assisted living facilities are an industry and oftentimes predatory - I don’t have time to go into examples now maybe later but yes this is as you put it a “shakedown”.

a felony? That’s absurd. They’re trying to con you into paying thousands extra on top of what your already paying for.

what do they pay their staff for? One reason is to ensure safety. So they should not require a sitter on top of what they’re already being paid a lot of money for!

Disgusting they’re taking advantage of your circumstances but that’s what they do.

If he had assaulted someone that’s a different story. I would take him out of there and find a way to care for him at home, at his age he doesn’t have that much time left anyway, if you can’t do that then find an alternative to this disgusting place

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very well stated!

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It may be that the money being asked is outrageous - because they want to avoid any potential liability by getting you to voluntary move your father.

Your father may not be aggressive but the nursing home has a responsibility to protect the woman from unwanted touching - his state of mind (flirting) is irrelevant.

one person's flirting is clearly another person's unacceptable sexual intrustions.

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Demand to see the ‘incident reports’ and ask why you were never advised of this before. If he tells you he will get for you tell him you want them this minute (so he can’t type them up). Next get your contract with the facility and read it carefully. Next go online and see if you can find any reviews or complaints about the facility. You need to have confidence, take an offensive stand with factual data to back it up. Then start looking for a new place for Dad and a good pro bono or contingency Atty for you. And speak with the lady he’s flirting with and ask her if she is afraid of dad. Be strong. Don’t be a victim. ❤️❤️

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My dad has been in an AL MC for the past 2 years and 2 girlfriends 1 moved to a different facility and then I moved my dad. The way I handled it was asking the ED from the facility to see if the family of the girlfriend would meet with me, which we did including the ED the family had no objections and things progresses as good friends and companions.

Residents in these facilities are lonely, frightened and oftentimes confused it only helps to have some companionship. There is no reason to keep them apart.

I agree with everything you said PatienceSD

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I'm being only half-facetious when I say that if he got sentenced to jail, the care there might be better than at the facility--at no expense to his family!

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I will be the other half facetious.

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That’s crazy. Unless he is in a nursing home, he should be able to do what he wants. At the VA nursing home where my MIL was, they didn’t care if the patients sit next to each other or held hands.

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Not if he is harassing someone else, he isn't allowed to do "what he wants."

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Imho "flirting" is not a felony.

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Dear Llamalover, I know I'm being legalistic and pedantic BUT: IMHO means 'In My Humble Opinion'. Whether or not flirting is a felony is NOT a matter of anyone's opinion, it's a question of law (and I very much doubt that the law says it is). But your opinion is valid and valued. Why are you always 'humble' about it? It's been puzzling me for months!

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They need to produce copies of the incidents to you. Has he touched someone who doesn't welcome his affection? Has the person who reported the incident been diagnosed with any kind of dementia? Has that person reported the same against any other residents? Look to see if anything inappropriate has been reported to police. I doubt seriously that the police are going to take a 90 year old man with dementia to jail, much less charge him with a felony. The complaints could also be coming from the family of an elderly woman who lives there who are having emotional problems with their mother being too friendly with another man (instead of their father).

What does the contract say about oversight of each patient? $4500 per month for assisted living seems rather cheap. Is this really assisted living or maybe more of independent living apartments? It might help you to call Ombudsman's office or department for elderly services in that county to get more info from them about the facility where he lives and the situation.

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Too many questions remain to really make a good suggestion.

'senior living residence"
Senior apartments? IL facility? AL facility? Care home?

"so he doesn't touch her or anyone inappropriately."

Have they provided reports that he has actually done this or are they concerned his current behavior will lead to that? You mention 'incident' reports - have you seen them? Has another resident actually made complaint(s)?

As others suggested, it might be appropriate to consider MC facility. Of course he could become infatuated with another resident there too, but they are more inclined to monitor residents. Most "senior facilities" such as IL/AL/apartments do not "watch over" residents 24/7. If someone is making advances towards another in these places, it might be reported by the other person if the "attention" is unwanted.

While I wouldn't object to them reporting issues to me, I would object to them threatening you/him. That's not an appropriate way to handle issues. A good place would have ways to work with residents and advocates without resorting to threats.

I would want to see these 'incident' reports myself. I would likely want dad evaluated by someone from outside the facility, to determine if he needs more supervised care. While checking out the situation, also be looking for another place for dad. Even if this "issue" is resolved, with or without hiring a sitter, he's already more or less been labeled as a problem by them. It begs future crap from them. MC is more expensive, however it's probably going to be less than the cost of his current facility plus a 24/7 "sitter."

Also, if he already has shown signs/been DXed with dementia, MC will be in his future anyway, so this might be the right time to consider moving him.

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First, have you read the incident reports? Is it simply overly friendly or is touching involved?

It's quite possible this could be the case in either independent or assisting senior living. Residents are expected to be able to take care of themselves to a greater degree and have a grasp of reality and adult responsibilities. If their definition of "flirting" is grabbing or trying to kiss someone against their will, it's an issue, unfortunately. And now sadly it's your issue.

Paying the fees you're likely paying and hiring a sitter is out of the question. I would consider moving him back home for a short time with home care if that's an option. During that time, I would also have him evaluated by clinicians to try to determine his true mental state. Many of these people will do evaluations in the home.

If that's not possible, see if you can set appointments for him outside that facility and away from their clinicians to get the same evaluations. If this is a scam, which it might very well be, they may skew the evaluations in their, not your dad's, best interest.

While you're pursuing either of these options, it would be wise to visit and interview other facilities. Once you have a better idea of your dad's needs for level of care, you can make a commitment to move him to another place.

And when you do that, if at all possible, I would not mention his former facility. It may be unavoidable, but it's worth a try. If it's a scam, they'll try to poison the well. If it's not, they may not try to prevent him from leaving to go to another place.

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Whats the point in the continued speculation when the OP has not bothered to reply to comments?

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Felony for flirting in Senior Living?

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