How do you help with hoarding?

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How do you help with hoarding?

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I have no experience with hoarders (thank heavens) but plenty with mice and snakes. Sneaking traps into cupboards won’t help if there is no-one to remove the bodies and re-bait the traps. Mice (thank heavens) aren’t all that dirty – perhaps someone is confused with rat fleas and bubonic plague (Covid is bad enough, we don’t have bubonic plague, thank heavens).

Snakes can scare the life out of you, but many are not poisonous. All our local snakes on the farm are seriously poisonous, and seven snakes inside would be followed quickly by a trip to the morgue. DH did the snake handling course, and we have appropriate snake catching gear. Further north, most snakes are pythons, not dangerous to humans unless you wrap one around your neck for a good squeeze. Know your local snakes!

If you can’t control a hoarder, then probably all you can do is to report serious danger for others to an authority that does have the power to control. Yikes!

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Mice aren't all that dirty?!?!?

So hantavirus, salmonella, and LCMV aren't a concern for you?

Not only can you get ill from the droppings but, if left long enough they turn to dust and now it's an airborne issue.

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I remember my brother telling me about his experience with our Dad after hearing Dad's diagnosis of cancer at 86. He was having a fidgiting experience in Dad's workshop and just started going through the mountain of margarine tubs, most of which held rusted twist ties and rotten rubber bands. Dad came up behind him and said "I might have cancer, but I don't go into your house and throw out your stuff".

Hoarding is relative. Mice attract snakes and most often mice are attracted to food stuffs laying out. Perhaps the old dog leaves a lot of food behind due to bad teeth or just that your parents over feed?

Dog feces and or urine certainly can be a problem if not dealt with. I feel for you there.

What are your parents' medical issues?

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Snakes are often on the hunt for mice, a potential plus unless the varieties in your area are venomous then of course potentially dangerous for dog and parents. Mice are cute, but the droppings and the odd 'grease' they secret to let their pals know where to follow for food is icky and can transmit disease. In the Southwest it's Hantavirus, from one specific mouse species, but all can carry fleas with other issues. The dog not going outdoors means extra filth in the house, plus that tells me the dog is not getting vetted either, a potential animal neglect issue. The situation you describe indicates your parents may need to be evaluated for their health and safety, mentally and physically. If their dwelling is becoming uninhabitable there could be issues of the house being condemned which would put them out. What kind of threatening do you mean? That they'd disinherit you, punish you somehow? You are concerned for their welfare. Talk to a social worker and/or elder attorney for advice; there may be reasonable ways to intervene. If your folks are found mentally competent and their dwelling not a health hazard you may just have to let them 'lie in the bed they've made' as hard as that is; it's their choice. Then find good counseling to help you cope meanwhile as their lives take their natural course. All the best.

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You are not responsible for the choices of your parents. They do not want your help. Step away. Leave them to themselves. Get on with your own life.

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There isn’t anything you can do to fix a hoarder. The trash and junk are their security blanket, their treasure.

Save the dog. Kidnap it. Find it a good home. The dog didn’t choose to live in a trash pile.

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YES! kidnap the dog.

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"They threatened me if I called social services." So?? If you care for them at all and feel bad they live in those conditions, call Adult Protective Services (APS). Then call the local SPCA and report a 13-year old dog living in deplorable conditions.

"I offered to clean up their house but they refused." Hoarding is a mental health problem. You cannot "clean up their house", even if they wanted you to. Without the intense help of a mental health therapist well versed in hoarding tendencies, cleaning up their house is a moot point. They will just start over again and regrow the hoard. It's a vicious cycle without extensive therapy to curb these tendencies.

That said, if they are "sarcastic and mean", I would stop visiting. If their house is infested with mice, snakes, trash (and I would assume animal feces), they are not in their right mind. You said, "I just found out my parents' house is filled with trash and mice." It sounds like you are not close with them or visit often. If you feel you want/need to do something, then do it. Call their local APS and make a report. It is anonymous. If you are not in the same town/State, call their local police dept and ask for a welfare check. Call their local fire Marshall and tell them you suspect your parents are hoarders and are in unsafe living conditions which would result in disaster should a fire or emergency happen in the home. Again, call their local SPCA investigation unit and tell them the dog is not well and you suspect neglect and abuse. There's a lot you can do if you want to get involved and follow through. If not, walk away. But it sounds like you care. Don't wait or the situation will keep deteriorating until the hoard affects their physical health and eventually EMS will be called and they will be taken away. This is a VERY difficult situation when they don't want your "help".

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I've seen he odd Hoarders episode on TV. These folk really do seem to lack the sight to SEE the rubbish or insight to SEE their behaviour. Quite tragic tales.

I know it's a mental illness (similar to OCD apparently?) but I don't how 2 people both seem to have it? Or is it usually 1 hoarder + 1 peacekeeper? What about any kids? Do they rebel or sink into depression? Are they forced to leave early?

Can anyone recommend any good books on the topic?

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Beatty, my personal experience, the hoarder wins because they are vicious in their 'rights" to do as they please. They make throwing your hands up the best solution because if they aren't happy, ain't nobody gonna be happy. It's miserable to try and do anything, they make sure of it. They fight like pitbulls.

I remember as a little girl that I just kept my stuff in my space and kept my area as clean as possible, 3 kids sharing a room was difficult. My 2 brothers didn't care, they were fine with the mess, this continues to this day. I tend to be a bit OCD now, not to the point of being mental about it but, if it doesn't serve a purpose it needs to get a new home. Organization and getting rid of something when you bring something home is my goal.

For many reasons I was on my own at 16. So I don't know if it had anything to do with the hoard or the miserable person that created it, or the 1000 other issues. I just knew that I couldn't live like that anymore or ever again.

There is no helping them. I spent 6 weeks cleaning a bathroom, the kitchen and a bedroom. I did this because her husband had part of his colon removed and I couldn't see him surviving being in that environment. For every 10 bags I removed, she brought 9 back in, she hid them and told me they had been picked up, she intentionally made a mess right where I was working every night when I went back to the hotel. I had to clean for an hour before I could proceed. This was her way of stopping me.

It is worse now then ever, before it was 3' deep, now it's as high as it will stack. Truly a hazard in many ways, yet APS can't/won't do anything.

I don't think her actions are personal, I think touching a hoarders treasures creates resentment and they fight back anyway they can. It is usually very emotionally charged when any intervention is attempted.

I don't recommend that anyone steps in and tries to help, it takes to much toll for not much progress, if any, it is bound to end as a fail, if professional help isn't involved.

I found that coming to terms with the fact that she can live anyway she wants, whether I agree or not, helps me deal better with her. Not easy because I wanted to help her for decades, yet, I am hugely relieved now that I let it go. And that is my advice to anyone dealing with a hoarder, bring in professional help and let it go.

Oh, the other thing that I have seen, not that the mess is unseen, it's that they refuse to actually acknowledge the mess and they justify why it is the way it is. Gaslighting is a specialty with my mom, she could teach classes she's so convincing. I just happen to know what she's doing but, to watch others by into it is freaky.

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glory623: Your parents suffer from mental illnesses. Their hoarding requires the services of professionals. And even then, it may come down to hoarder 1, professional 0. Why is this? Answer - the hoarder has a disease of the mind, not easily 'cured.' Many put their lives in danger (think possible house fires), yet the hoarder is unable to see it in their mind because the mind is SEVERELY flawed.

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Llamalover,

No one can force people with mental illness to let possible treatments and therapy work.
If the parents don't want help for their hoarding disorder they aren't going to accept it.
Some hoarders are so deep in denial of having a mental illness that even when the city/country they live in condemn their homes and they have to move, they still don't think it's their problem.
They move to another place and start hoarding that.
My former SIL is a hoarder. She was also a perfectionist like many are but also extremely lazy. Everyone including myself tried to get her place in order and to not be judgmental about it. Not for her sake but for her kids. She was a sarcastic ingrate who never had a moment of gratitude towards anyone in her life. Also an entitled narcissist who believes the whole world owes her. She went to therapy for years. All they did was validate her bad behavior and make it not her fault.
She's still an entitled, narcissistic hoarder to this day. No one can force someone to get better. So everyone who ever cared about her walked way one by one, myself included. If people don't want to help themselves there's nothing anyone can do. Walk away.

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Well, you have the snakes to eat the mice. Now you just need to introduce something to eat the snakes. Maybe a mongoose? Then a cougar to eat that, and a crocodile to eat the cougar. Then you can just remove the croc when it starts to hibernate and the house will be animal free!

In all seriousness, just stop going over there. You're not going to change them so don't bother trying. I'd focus more on saving the dog than saving the parents. Animal cruelty is awful. I'd still call APS, just to do your due diligence (screw their threats), but beyond that let them rot in the filth. It's not your problem.

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🤣🤣🤣

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Call the authorities. There are snakes because there are rodents. There are rodents because there is trash for them to eat. Unfortunately, the home may have to be condemned by the authorities. They are not living in a safe environment. They may need to move to assisted living. Please do the tough, right thing and make the call.

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Please call animal control for this poor dog. Sometimes this is the only way the appropriate people can get involved, because animal control would more than likely make a report to. APS.

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Hoarding is awful. I am an adult child of a hoarder mom and an enabler dad. They both passed away many years ago and are not the reason I'm on this board. I am a member on Facebook of a group for adult children of hoarders and one of the strongest messages that comes across is hoarding is REALLY hard to "fix." There is Diogenes Syndrome, also called Senile Squalor Syndrome. "Persons with Diogenes syndrome demonstrate little concern for self-care or a clean living environment and seem frankly undisturbed about their condition or how others respond to it." (credit to BaptistHealth.com.) But APS really doesn't care as long as they're not burning their house down. They are allowed to live how they want. Hoarders can be narcissists. They can have OCD which can manifest by their being unable to clean out more than one drawer a day because they are, surprisingly, perfectionists. (That was my hoarder mom.) At any rate, there is sadly not much you can do. Yes, they can call the police if you are "stealing" their stuff, which is how many of them will respond to anyone attempting to move their stuff. When my mom died she had a 4-bedroom house, 2-car garage, attic area, crawl space, and a storage shed PACKED with little "goat paths" running through it. Go look up the 5 levels of hoarding. You are not alone. Sometimes medication for depression or OCD or anxiety helps, but they have to be willing to take it and be willing to admit they have a problem. I'm sorry not to be more helpful, but it is REALLY hard to get a hoarder to change. As I said , there are Facebook groups for children of hoarders - and a lot of us are a long time removed from being children. So you would be welcome for, perhaps, better advice.

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I still want to know how the OP has "just found out" about this, because a lot depends on how fast the problem has built up and what the roots of it are.

Mice are not nasty, all God's creatures and all that, but the big issue with them and all other rodents in the house but not in cages is that they have to gnaw to keep their teeth from overgrowing and they are regrettably fond of domestic wiring for the purpose. Cue fire hazard.

Glory623 are you still with us?

PS I've just realised that I have to declare an interest in stating that mice are not nasty!
PPS It's only a name. I myself do not habitually gnaw on domestic wiring or anything else.

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It's okay, Countrymouse. Mice are nasty and dangerous. They also carry a host of diseases as well.
Remember, rodents and vermin were responsible for wiping out two-thirds the population of Europe because they were carrying and spreading the Black Death.
Mice are nasty and bad. Humans should never be sharing their living space with them or any other rodents or bug.

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It sounds like your parents are far beyond this, but I offered (told my Dad) that I was going to organize his piles and piles of paperwork. I wouldn't actually throw any of them out unless I asked him. I got some document boxes and folders to sort everything out. It helped get rid of the piles of paper a bit, and also gave me a better idea of what kinds of financial and insurance accounts he had in place. (We never sat down and talked about his accounts before his memory started getting sketchy - I still regret that, because we both knew better.)
There were some mice, but at the time he was still capable of setting traps and getting rid of some of them, but never took care of the main issue of the food being accessible and bird seed around that they could get in to.
I was also doing what some of the folks here mentioned about would sneak out expired food. It didn't do much but made me feel like I was making some progress.
And now that he's in a nursing home, I have a bit of a place to start with the paperwork etc. Hope this helps someone.

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I didn't mention this in my post--but this woman that I was 'helping' had custody of her 3 grandchildren. She's 72. That fact changed the way APS handled the hoarding, but sadly, not by much. The kids should have been awarded to the state as foster kids--but somehow the grandma still has them--and they are growing up with a stilted, sick vision of how living is. The oldest boy (age 14) literally sleeps on a pile of dirty laundry. His bedroom is the laundry room and since there is no bed in there, but always tons of laundry, he just makes a nest and sleeps there. I cannot fathom how CPS and APS looked at THAT and said "yeah, that's fine".

I took dinner over to them one night (gma was sick) and the little girl (age 7) climbed on the completely covered dining table and KICKED all the detritus on the floor and said "Just put dinner here". I did, but AFTER I washed down the table b/c the cat was always sitting on it. I was gagging--hadn't been in the house in months and I could not believe how filthy it was. They were eating within 3 feet of the overloaded cat litter box.

I was told that the load of children needing foster care is so huge that if the kids have food, a roof over their heads and one adult in their lives, that's good enough.

This woman, on her own, was super, super messy. Add 3 kids to that and you get serious problems. I have long since stepped out and away from the mess. I'm not mentally as stable as I could be, so it was best for me. I didn't help her one little bit.

Watch a little bit of 'Hoarders'. There's always a trigger of some kind that starts it happening. And it cuts across all lines of education, intelligence, wealth & location.

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I suggest you get a guardianship over your parents. You need to gently strong arm this matter - but unless you have a guardianship they do not have to cooperate with you. Then get help and direction from Adult Protective Services. Your parents may not like it but it is for their own good as it appears that they has lost control for themselves. Sympathy and respect are fine But this also needs to lead to their
safety and health.

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We had a family friend who matched your description of your parents. He was not always so, but after he retired, his home went into shambles. We found him collapsed on the floor one Christmas eve. His face was raw from rubbing on the floor. He was in a coma. He died in the hospital from Hanta virus, a mouse disease.

If you care about your parents you have to call and get some help.

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My DH had an old neighbour that kept birds & turned hoarder. He died of a bird carried virus or disease.

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Sometimes you’ll get further by calling Code Enforcement - or the Fire Department if your County doesn’t have Code Enforcement.

Their interest is structural safety, plus they will bring in Animal Control.

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This is off-topic, so disregard it if you aren’t interested in mice. Australia had a mouse plague a couple of years ago (they happen every so often), and it was so bad in the eastern states that there were videos of farmers going outside and having to tread on mice because they covered all the bare ground. No-one got a mouse-related illness, although it could be a mental health/ depression issue because it ruined the crops (some farmers burned them to kill at least a few mice). At the other end of the volume scale, pet mice here are indeed house mice, and the few local mice are nocturnal desert dwellers, with permits required to keep them as pets. So in view of comments of illness from mice in hoarders houses, I was curious enough to do some checking.

North America has more variants of mice than OZ. Mice are vectors for various diseases, so the disease has to be there before the mice can pass it on to humans. Different mouse variants are hosts for different illnesses, and yes, some of them are quite nasty. The mouse variants and the diseases are sometimes regional – eg semi-tropical. It sounds like you need a combination of a large number of the wrong sort of mice, wrong locality, and bad luck in having a source of the disease for the mice to catch and pass on.

So I agree, get rid of those American mice! I’ll stick to baiting ours, and continuing the puzzle of how on earth they find a way into the house.

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Countrymouse,
How a r e your teeth doing? 😁 🪥

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How did they threaten you? And could they even carry out the threat? Being mean and sarcastic worked - you didn't do anything and you left. They got to resume 'business as usual'.

Go back and tell them (if they understand/not dementia related) that you ARE going to take the trash out of the house because of the health issues. If you see one mouse, there are many more. They pee on things that end up being ingested. They cannot live safely like that. Also, it creates mice problems for neighbors. If they still refuse, tell them you ARE going to call adult protective and there's a good chance they will be removed from the home - depending on where they end up, there's an even better chance the dog won't be allowed. If they really love that dog (and they probably do) use that as the point to drive home with them.

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You need to contact APS right away. Doesnt matter if they threatened you or not. You need to do whats best for them as they obviously no longer make good decisions.

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To get anything done legally you would have to petition family court for guardianship over their affairs. You would need to prove their incompetent. Otherwise, not much you can do. My brother has bi-polar and he is a hoarder as well. When I cleaned out his mobile home, there was trash 2 feet deep in almost every room.

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Sounds like there is Dementia as they are defensive and mean. Is this a change from their former attitudes?
it is worth it to call Social Services or Fire Dept for code violations.
They are not going to let you help them. Elderly can get into fearful and odd behaviors that they can't be talked out of.
If someone can assess them- like police do a welfare check and see if they can refer to a mental health service.

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