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EN, so proud of your successful extraction from elder demands!

I did have one question, though (which you may not know the answer to) -- do your mother and your aunt regularly communicate? Or has your aunt cut down on that, too, since your mother isn't going to get you to do things for her sister.
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EmotionallyNumb Oct 2022
They haven't talked at all since about the end of June. I actually don't have caller ID hooked up to the house phone so it's possible aunt has called and we don't know it. She hasn't called my cellphone or sent any messages on facebook, though. I know she has been active on facebook because that's how she sent my cousin a message. I have another aunt that has been spending time with her who has been very quiet lately, I'm guessing this aunt doesn't want her giving us any information so that's why she's been quiet.
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EN, I'm glad that this part of the "not-your-family-drama" is behind you!
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Nothing new to report, I haven't seen or talked to her since my last post. I have heard that she messaged one of my cousins one facebook and asked that the cousin have her mom call her. She apparently wanted a ride somewhere, I'm guessing probably a long distance. What struck me as funny about this is that she has this family member's phone number. She was able to call her from the psych ward so she knows how to find their number. Her asking this family member to call her instead of just calling seems a bit gamey, like shes trying have the upper hand by them being the ones to call, but whatever. I also heard that her son assumed the mortgage on her house and gave her some money for it but I dont know how much. I haven't talked to any of her kids in several months either. Everything seems pretty good in my world right now.
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Just say it. Simple.
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What's the latest on this drama?
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She wanted someone to call her to ask if she wanted a ride. They didn't so now she is sulking.

Had a friend that felt this way, people should come to her not her ask. It was always, poor me.
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lkdrymom Aug 2022
I think you are right. She wanted someone to 'beg' her to come and make the gathering about her. My father had no interest in going to birthday parties that were not for him.
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We had a get together for one of my uncles bday over the weekend at a local park. Aunt was invited and told to call one of my other aunts if she wanted a ride. Apparently the aunt that told her about said she was excited and going to come but then the day of the event she never answered her phone or called any one for a ride. My mentally ill aunt has been the one most in contact with her and was very insistent on trying to have the get together in her yard but everyone else wanted to go to the park so that's what we did.

I am glad aunt was invited so that she had a chance to be around the other siblings if she wanted. It was her choice to come or not and ultimately she chose not to, so if she's lonely or trying to feel sorry for herself she has to realize that the ball was in her court.
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Beatty Aug 2022
There was a poster who's MIL would constantly be a no-show, even when offered a ride. Later dx with vascular dementia.. could not remember when event was, spent days choosing an outfit, but lack of mobility to wear it. But mostly embarrassment over worsening incontinence.

You may or may not ever find out why Aunt didn't attend.

Your boundaries are holding up so well!
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I have not heard anything from aunt since my last post. I did get a text from one of her kids asking for the number to her apartment manager so I just sent that and didn't ask any questions. I assume she's not answering the phone or responding to their emails or facebook messages. My mom is planning to over to aunt's with one of her sisters next week and drop off some food. She says she just wants to check on her if she has her other sister with she doesn't think aunt will be too clingy.

I am a bit curious about a few things but I am learning not to ask questions because it can just draw you in more. My mom has been more moody than usual the last few days, I really think her moods make her medical issues worse. And if she feels guilty about that makes her feel physically worse. I just keep my mouth shut about most of my opinions but she knows I won't be anything to help with aunt.
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CTTN55 Aug 2022
I was just thinking about you the other day. You and erzoolie are real success stories here! If you find anything good out after your mother's upcoming visit to her sister with another sister next week, let us know.

And good for you for continuing to maintain the boundary of not doing anything to help out with aunt! I wouldn't be surprised if the other sister can't go for one reason or another, and then your mother will try to get you to take her. I know you will stand strong if this happens.
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Almost 2 weeks and nothing from your Aunt?

No, she is not embarrassed, she is hoping you come to the rescue.
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She hasn't tried to get a hold of us since my mom talked to her last Sunday. One thing I did find interesting was that we were talking to my Ml aunt on friday and on this list that I gave my aunt, the very first thing I put on it was to call the county and set up an appointment to see if she qualified to have a personal care attendant paid for. My MI aunt said that this aunt had talked about it with the crisis worker and decided not to do that right now. Why not? It makes no sense to be why she wouldn't pursue that. She doesn't drive, she claims she cant work her internet or grocery shop, she doesnt want to unpack, clean or cook. These are all things a home home worker could assist with. She also went around to three of her neighbors to see if they could fix her internet. My MI aunt was concerned she hadn't paid her rent yet so she called the office to check and my aunt told her not to call the office anymore. Could this aunt possibly be embarrassed? I don't recall her having any feelings of embarrassment when she was crawling across one the busiest streets in town so she could drag herself into my workplace thinking to try to get me to take her six hours away to see a daughter who doesnt want to see her and had no idea she was going to try and come there.
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PeggySue2020 Jul 2022
EN, I suggest detaching yourself from all that other family members tell you about Aunt. It serves no purpose other than gossip.
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Posting to bring it back to top. I need to know where this all ends up leading. Its like a soap opera. 😊

So today is the 14th and Aunts been good for 4 days? I so hope so EM.
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Bookmarketinf
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When I got up today, my mom said that she no longer wanted to go over to my aunt's. She said she got caught up in worrying about and feeling like she needed to take care of her. So we decided to just slip the list under her door and then called her and told her we weren't coming. Aunt sounded depressed and sad on the phone but like she was trying to do some things on her own. I do feel sorry for her, that she's lonely and overwhelmed but I get a feeling of panic in the pit of my stomach when I think of seeing her. It's just not a halfway situation with her, either she cries and tells you all her problems, wants to see you all the time and will call every time she has an issue or you have to have almost have no contact with her. One of her daughters said she will order groceries for her and help her with paying bills and her son apparently said he would help with selling her house but she needs to be the one to reach out to them. We told her to just keep the conversation to these things and not talk about any of their other issues right now. I gave her the number to call and schedule an appointment for an assessment to see if she qualifies for PCA services. I gave her the number for the bus for elderly and handicapped services. I gave her daughter the info she needs to pay her rent online.
This situation kind of ruined my weekend so I'm heading into a long week feeling tired and stressed out. I work nine hour days M-T so that I can have a shorter day on Fridays during the summer. Then I schedule appointments for my second job on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday evenings. I fit in my homework around this stuff. If I am not at work, I take my mom and my dog pretty much everywhere with me. I need one day on the weekend to sleep in and kind of take it easy most of the day. In the summer, I try to do something fun one day per weekend, I'll include my mom if I can but somethings she just can't participate in. I love my day job, I could make more money somewhere else but I would rather like my job and the people that I work with than make a couple more dollars an hour. I left an awful work environment to come here and I don't regret it all. So that is pretty much my life, the time I have free is basically on the weekend and a couple evenings a week but my mom usually keeps me somewhat busy those times and I have to take off work sometimes for her appointments so not always a lot of time there either. My dog also has some health issues and is kind of needy so she takes a fair amount of time, too. I don't think I can do anymore than we've done.
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To quote my very wise late mom: "some people are their own worst enemies."
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EmotionallyNumb Jul 2022
I completely agree! I am definitely my own worst enemy too.
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Yes, I thought that Aunt already got a list. I think I may call the crisis worker. Tell her what you were told. Get her side.

You don't buy an AL apartment but you do "buy into" a Community, usually IL, then an AL and then finally a NH. Actually 90k is cheap if this is what crisis worker is talking about. And get mad because Aunt doesn't have the money? Doesn't Aunt own her house? What is being done with that?

I agree, if Mom wants to help, let her but without you. Make it plain that anything Mom agrees to is all on her. You ARE NOT getting involved. That means Mom will need to find her own rides to Aunts. Mom is not to figure you into any plans she and Aunt make. Your answer will always be no. If Mom can't do it, her answer needs to be no. Aunt has children of her own who should be doing for her. You are not using your free time to fetch and carry for her. Stick by your guns because once you let ur guard down, it will be hard to say no.
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Isthisrealyreal Jul 2022
I think that Auntie has disconnected from her children because they won't let her live with them.

So, Auntie doesn't have her children's help, by her choice.
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Not like we didn’t see this coming and we all knew mom was the weakest link. Make the list and make 10 copies. Next time she loses it you can mail her one. How did mom take the news that she was going alone without a chauffeur?
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EmotionallyNumb Jul 2022
She ended up changing her mind on her own about seeing aunt in person so I just slid the list under aunt's door and had my mom call her to tell her we weren't coming.
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"She said aunt was very *contrite* and wants us to come over tomorrow..."

Contrite? How so? What did aunt say? What reasons did she give for wanting you and your mom to go see her? Seems like ner usual bait and trap tactics.

Does your mom know you won't be driving her to aunt's place? If not, what are you going to tell mom when she puts pressure on you?
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EmotionallyNumb Jul 2022
Well her initial reason was that she wanted help unpacking but my mom told her we wouldn't be doing that. She has a bunch of boxes in her apartment still but most of it is kitchen stuff she didn't want to get rid of. The problem is that she is trying to fit stuff from a kitchen from a 4 bedroom house into a one bedroom apartment.
She seemed contrite by saying she realized she needed to do more and ask less of people and she apologized for some things. Mom actually changed her mind on her own so that was good.
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The crisis worker is upset with your aunt? She's even running off the social services people...wow!

Good for you for refusing to participate in any informational meeting with your two aunts. Shame on your mother for STILL trying to help by getting you involved.

Haven't you already given your aunt the list of places and phone numbers to access help? But, yes, giving them a list is a good act on your part. Will your mother actually make her own arrangements to get to aunt's apartment?

BTW, my mother was the same way about accessing my area's ride service. One time we were at the coumadin clinic, and she mused, "What do people do who don't have daughters?" There was no way that SHE would ever take a handi-ride van. I was "forced" to become her driver, and she was not happy when I set strict limits on my chauffering her around.
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EmotionallyNumb Jul 2022
My mom will take the bus sometimes and the I will meet her or pick her after the appointment. It's just not always possible to get the time off work. My aunt will have to adjust or she will burn $50 in taxi rides for something that could have been free. She probably overwhelmed or burned out the crisis worker. She thinks that there is money available for free for every need a person has and it's just not how it works.
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The crisis worker story is your aunt's say-so, right?

I'll bet the truth is something different.

It sounds like you've taken the first step towards getting out of your somewhat enmeshed relationship with your mom. Well done.
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EmotionallyNumb Jul 2022
I told my mom this is part of her pattern with my aunt. She feels sorry for her and worries she's being taken advantage of so she tries to 'rescue' and ends up feeling angry and resentful. I said when she agrees to do something she is in effect obligating me to do something because she needs to help to accomplish it. I said I am not part of her and aunt's pattern and I do not want to drug into it.
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So my mom answered the phone when aunt called today. She said aunt was very contrite and wants us to come over tomorrow along with my mentally ill aunt. My mom wants me to make a list of phone numbers for my aunt to call for help and services. Apparently the crisis worker has started to avoid her and is upset with her for not going to an assisted living apartment where she would have to buy a 90k apartment. Aunt doesnt even have 90k.

Mom said she told aunt that we aren't going to do things for her but did agree that she (and I, who was not home at the time) would come over tomorrow. I told my mom all the reasons I dont think that is a good idea and she counters with aunt is all alone, this is her sister, she is not going to get involved to the same level as before, yadda yadda yadda.

Ive been upset about this all evening and have come to the conclusion that my mom may feel she needs to be involved and there is nothing I can do to change that. However, that doesnt mean I need to be involved. I decided I will write out the list she wants but I'm not going over to her apartment. I also won't be driving my mom over there, she can figure out how to get back and forth. This is exactly how we got involved in this circus to begin with. Aunt would ask my mom a question, mom would try to get me to figure out and plan aunt's life. Her whole life is a logistical nightmare. I dont wish bad things for her but I am not willing to spend my little free time on her.
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Beatty Jul 2022
I think your stance is good.

Say Mom, you can do/say/act as you need to. I will do same.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to say "I don't agree, therefore I will not participate".

(I have had to do this. Hard but necessary).

Writing out lists, phone numbers etc can be your last input. Mom can take (not you).
Agree not to even drive there.
I think if you are literally in sight - you will be roped in.
A fall, chest pain - any other 'attention seeking' behaviours to get her way/lure in 'the help'.

I was told once (by a mental health nurse) siblings of a severely mentally ill person often become over-involved & enmeshed, supporting the ill one or have to go to the other extreme, to 'grey rock' & keeping very strong boundaries, as the ill one needs can be all encompassing. I feel your mentally ill Aunt is a sitting duck for enmeshment! It is she who will be roped in & eaten alive next. But this is past your area of involvement.

I feel this pressure will only end once Aunt has burnt through all her relatives & crises forces her into care.

Strength to you today.
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Took a taxi across the street...love it. She is something. Was she a favored child? Did her husband wait on her hand and foot?

My FIL was one of 8. His sister F being the oldest. She married a man who put her on a pedestal. They had no children. When she got a bath/shower he was right there with a towel for her to dry off. Me, my shower is my me time, the door gets locked. When her DH died at 98, she was in her early 90s. There was a 14 yr difference between her and FIL. My in-laws were moving to Fla at that time. F felt her brothers responsibility was to stay and help care for her. My MIL told her differently. The sister she made POA would not have her living with her because they were like oil and water. No way was A waiting on F when A had worked all her life to have what she did. The other sister suffered from RA so couldn't care for her. So off to AL she went and when money ran out a NH.
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EmotionallyNumb Jul 2022
She might have been slightly favored by my grandma but my grandpa saw right through her and she still disses him whenever she talks about him to this day, he's been dead for over 25 years. I don't think her husband put her on a pedestal more so he was probably afraid of her and just did what she wanted to stop her b!tching. She hadn't worked outside the house in probably forty years and all the kids moved like thirty years ago. She didn't drive so he did all the errands, paid all the bills, drove her to doctor appointments, he even did the laundry the last five years or so because she said she couldn't do stairs anymore. She used to cook but I don't think she even did much of that anymore, he ate a lot of frozen dinners. He only retired less than a year ago.
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You say NO! And repeat it until it sinks in. I had to do it for my own health and sanity.
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"One of them wouldn't do anything to help, one would help but she's pretty busy with her kids and husband, and the final one is helping her some but she's pretty mentally ill, like she's only mid 50's and she quit driving because of anxiety."

One of these sibs of your aunt will be designated next-of-kin. Sounds like it's one of the 2 sisters mentioned above. What has the mentally ill one doing to help your aunt?

So the criris worker did NOT call you on Tuesday?
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EmotionallyNumb Jul 2022
No the crisis worker didn't call on Wednesday but the mentally ill aunt did. She wanted help figuring out how to pay the rent of this aunt. I wrote her out detailed instructions on how to do it in June and it sounds like the two of them have been dinking around for a week a half trying to do it. I emailed her the website and log in information. She said that the crisis worker had changed the meeting to today. I did get a couple of calls from numbers I didn't know today but I just didn't answer them.

The mentally ill one stayed over a couple of nights with her, spent hours talking to her on the phone and run some errands for her. I don't know how she ran the errands because she doesn't drive but she must have taken the bus or a cab. So this is kind of funny because my aunt doesn't really like the mentally ill one.

The MI aunt set up a bus ride for this aunt to the clinic and aunt ended up taking a cab and said she 'missed the bus'. That's not really possible because the bus does special pickups and they will even call you if you aren't outside when they get there. The bus ride is also free if you are just going to the clinic or home. So this aunt deliberately paid like 10 bucks each way to take a cab when she could have had a free bus ride. I think she's embarrassed to take the bus, they have a lift that people stand on with their walker or wheelchair that lifts them up into the bus. I think she thinks she's better than that and that's why she won't take it.
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If the crisis worker calls you, you say that YOU'RE not involved, just like her kids did.
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EmotionallyNumb Jul 2022
Yeah, I also need to be better at screening calls.
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EN, let us know if the crisis worker ends up calling you after meeting with your aunt today. She shouldn't, but we all know she might!

So one uncle is pretty much done with aunt, and we know her children are, too. How many siblings are left (NOT including your mother)?
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EmotionallyNumb Jul 2022
Well, within close distance there's three other ones. One of them wouldn't do anything to help, one would help but she's pretty busy with her kids and husband, and the final one is helping her some but she's pretty mentally ill, like she's only mid 50's and she quit driving because of anxiety.
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Once Aunt has burned up ALL relatives & neighbours good will & free help may she be granted the wisdom of *insight*.

💡
I am not entitled for the world to serve me.

If I want a thing done, I ASK someone.

If they say no, I ask elsewhere.

I may have to PAY for something I want.

🤔
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EmotionallyNumb Jul 2022
Yes, i think her answer lies in paying someone to help her and tolerate her. She took a taxi to a gas station across the street from and got the driver to go in for her.
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EB - Aunt sure needs a lot of help. If she wants her brother to help, maybe she can pay him for his time, and gas. Would your uncle be interested if paid fairly?
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EmotionallyNumb Jul 2022
No, I think he's out of the running as her next slave. He referred to her as delusional, having learned helplessness and that she's looking for to devote themselves to her errands, wants and needs.
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I ran into my uncle last night and he, my mom and I ended up talking for like three hours. He had gone for a drive with my aunt last Friday and she was trying to get him to do all sorts of things for her. She was listing a lot medical issues she has that he also has, and was acting like this means she needs someone at her beck and call 24/7. She actually asked him to stay overnight at her apartment. He said he went to the grocery store for her and was asking himself how he ended up looking for cat treats in the middle of the night, lol. He said he was more blunt with her about needing to do things for herself and she got angry.

He was actually pretty helpful in explaining some things to my mom and helping her to not feel so guilty. I don't think my mom wants anything to do with my aunt but it's the idea in her head that she feels like she should do things for her. He also used the words 'feels like she would suck the life out me' about my aunt. I explained that we would have a very casual relationship with her, if that were possible, but that I don't think it is. I don't think aunt would allow the relationship to be like that, I think she would constantly be calling and asking for things and manipulating, because of this, I just don't think we can have anything to do with her. He plans to screen his calls from her and stay away.
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When an agency calls say you have no idea why Aunt gave her ur# when she has siblings in their 60s and 4 children, then the person their phone#s. Also ask that she "lose" ur phone#.

Glad you had a nice vacation. I am sitting in Toronto airport waiting for my flight home. In Alaska for 11 days.
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EmotionallyNumb Jul 2022
I hope you had a good vacation too!
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I really feel for you at this latest twist. The continuous pressure of it. Keep strong as you are!!

This inbetween land is when I felt the most uneasy.

When I had seen through some FOG, had built some strategies & defences. But like a small boat on the waves, some splashes got over the sides.

While you have done a truly amazing job on your boundaries, found when you gave a helping hand to your Aunt to stop her drowning, she pulled your arm off.. cared not who she drowned in her survival. Your Mom still has FOG & as you stated, she will feel the pull, offer her hand but this includes YOUR hand also.

This also happened to me. Each time help would be offered by someone who had such porous boundaries they could not see I was separate to them. They offered - but expected me to be the help.

I had to keep on clarifying. You may call, visit, help.
But you CANNOT offer MY services or time. That is up to ME.

I can see it now sometimes with DH's side too. Some who act as though their brain has the right to instruct other's bodies - they control some mega-multi armed multi legged being. It's a shock to them when this part over here (me) says no. It's how dare you.

No-one in my life has said this better than a 5 yr old boy I met once;

Well you may want me to do it that way, but I don't. I have my own way. I am a separate person to you & we are allowed to think differently.

Sorry Mom. Help if you want. But I will not be manipulated nor enable.
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EmotionallyNumb Jul 2022
Thank you Beatty.
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