My father came from a family of origin that had no boundaries and would aggressively butt into their children's, grandchildren's, and great-grandchildren's lives. My father and I had a falling out because he made our relationship conditional on me caring for his parents and my mom's parents. These were sexist, verbally abusive, emotionally manipulative, grandparents from whom I kept a distance as I got older. My father became more progressive gender-wise as I grew up, but when the hands-on grandparent care started, he fell into his old family dynamics. My mom didn't intervene much because she wanted to save their marriage. My father's siblings are all divorced because that was the only way for their spouses to set boundaries with their in-laws. Then, in my 20s, my father would become uncomfortable with me wearing short track shorts and sports tanks (normal girl attire I grew up wearing). He said he was uncomfortable with women's bodies. And every time, I wore makeup or modest tanks or well-fitted work clothing, he would turn around and avoid eye contact. I felt betrayed because I came to trust him and saw him change his views on gender during my childhood, and then, he reverted to his old ways during the grandparent caregiving, when he was trying to accommodate them and make sure they lived out their years in peace. He would insist that I observe the religious mourning rituals for my grandparents, but I couldn't because they were either verbally abusive, never accepted me for who I was, or we just never had a relationship to begin with. I feel that my father neglected my needs. We gradually stopped talking over the years. My parents never met the new friends I made in my 20s, they weren't invited to my grad school graduation, they never met my husband, they weren't at my wedding, and they never met my kids. I've been in therapy for years, and finally accepted it. I spent most of my 20s after the estrangement being angry, but then I accepted it. I focused on the ways that I survived without my parents and family, instead of on the anger. And I learned to accept the pain, I guess when your parents die, it lessons but there's always a twinge of sadness on holidays. I realize that my parents were limited people who did the best they could. After the estrangement, there were times I didn't have enough to eat or didn't have a bed to sleep on, but I survived by myself, on my own. I learned to build a life for myself. I have a successful career, a great house, a wonderful husband who treats me like an equal, and a son (12) and daughter (11) whom I am raising in an equal way. We live about 30 minutes away, but I've never seen my parents in years. I've been teaching both my son and daughter how to cook and do some minor fixing around the house. Both are really into sports. I've taught my son to respect women. I've taught my daughter to be proud of her gender and body. We have a childless elderly couple living next door that have served as surrogate grandparents, and my friends have been great aunts and uncles. My husband's family is close-knit, and my kids are a part of their lives. I think my dad saw some photos on a social media account I have and found my phone number online this summer. He said he wants to meet his grandchildren before his death (he's in his early 70s, Mom in her 60s). He asked that I please dress modestly without tank tops and makeup. He also asked that my daughter not wear shorts above the knee and the sports tank tops that girls her age wear. There are no restrictions on my son's clothing. My dad told me that my grandparents are now dead, and he wants to keep the past in the past but not discuss it. He's seen his brother who's in his 80s spend his last years alone because he never re-married (caregiving consumed him). Dad doesn't want to die alone, and he said it would make him feel happy if I helped him with mowing the lawn and gardening. This brought back painful memories.
But from what I could understand, you don't want your father to meet your children b/c of his strict demands? Have you ever just told him that your chlildren will dress as you feel appropriate?
It does seem though that you're justifying your position on getting together with your father.
Did you mean to say on NOT getting together with your father?
It does seem though that you're justifying your position on getting together with your father.
My dad's father went to work one day and never came home. He disappeared so completely that |y grandmother became a private detective to try to track him down to divorce him. My dad was five when his father left and never saw him again.
My brother and I met the man once not long before he died, mostly because his sister was pushing it. We went, he showed no interest in knowing us, and we left. No harm, no foul. Our dad said nothing about it one way or the other and let us decide to see him.
I'm sorry your kids won't have the opportunity to make up their own minds about their grandparents, but you're the parent and get to make the final call at least until they're adults. If you think your father can offer not one positive thing to your children by knowing them, then so be it. Just be sure you aren't projecting your issues onto them, because that isn't fair to any of them.
I have a suggestion.
Go meet your parents by yourself and see if the temperature of the water has actually changed.
"Wants to meet his grandchildren and some help gardening and mowing" sounds incredibly manipulative to me. Maybe I'm imagining that. But if I wanted to meet my estranged grandchildren, desperately, I wouldn't be including a request for chores to be done in the same breath.
If she wants to see her parents again it should be on HER terms. She goes and takes her children and they wear what THEY want. No chores and no getting sucked into caregiving as there will be no thanks for it. It seems like she comes from a very religious family of origin that would consider caregiving to be a daughter's responsibility.
If she doesn't want to see her parents again that is ok. After all her father previously made their relationship conditional on her caring for both sets of grandparents. The OP walked away. This time a relationship with her parents is likely to be conditional on her caring for them.
My compromise would be to go around with your daughter in whatever clothes will work, one visit, and then that’s it. He’s seen you both, you've seen him. Son can visit on his own, if that works better. Any closer contact depends on what each side decides to do.
PS Just in time to add: Check if your father’s prejudices are based on religion. If they are, almost certainly nothing will change. And watch your son carefully – male supremacy views can be very appealing to teenage boys.
He lost a daughter to the exacting expectations of his culture/religion of origin, and he'd like her back.
But do you want to expose your children to it? I have to say that if it were me, going only on what you've had space to say here (I appreciate that it's very limiting), I'd already have changed my phone number and run a mile.
The alternative requires you to have very strong boundaries that can withstand direct hits from your family of origin. The dress stipulations, the attitudes, even the "reaching out" itself indicate that nothing has changed at their end. They are as they were, but that doesn't mean itself that they have nothing to offer.
The challenge is to "take the better things, and leave the worse ones" as Hilaire Belloc put it. They ARE your family, like them or not. Arguably, your children deserve to know them and form their own opinions and their own relationships with the people who are their blood. Certainly it would be a mistake to cover the kids' eyes and try to stop them knowing.
If you can dress appropriately for the context without feeling like a hypocrite or a traitor to yourself, if you can teach your daughter that one can dress with respect for one's hosts without accepting their belief that ladies' knees are Satan's lure for the unwary, if you are confident that you can contradict or oppose anything that needs it gracefully and in a way that will make your children equally confident in what you've taught them... Trouble is, it's beginning to look like quite an If, isn't it.
When did your father call? How long have you had to give this situation the thought it deserves?
Strong boundaries are essential and the ability to (1) emotionally disengage by seeing your parent as a PERSON not a parent, and (2) having an interaction strategy is important. For example: when opinions/advise are offered my response became “thank you for your opinion, but that is not open for discussion”. And repeat and repeat. DO NOT ENGAGE. They cannot argue when you offer nothing to argue about. Do not let your emotions dictate your speech. This is a choice - a discipline, and self control.
Consider taking a 3rd party - like your husband. You don’t have to go alone. Sometimes that helps and he’ll have your back. This does not demean you, it’s does not mean you cannot take care of yourself. What you are doing is analyzing a situation for the best outcome. The description of your Dad means he’ll “respect” your husband because he is male. This is a tool in your toolbox. Remove emotion and offense from that fact. Use the weapon. I’ve had discussions with my spouse that I found so very enlightening. I will never understand the need for males to protect their spouses - but it is deeply engrained in them as men. God made them that way. Love it - embrace it - it doesn’t make you weaker. It honors who THEY are and also validates them.
Do not take your children until you have an assessment and down any road of engagement.
Finally - and this will be a highly unpopular thought so I guess I’ll take major heat over this. So I’ll start with yes - protect yourself in whatever manner is necessary. Letting an “abuser” back into your life is not good - unless there is healing to be found AND you can CONTROL the situation to get what you (both?) might need to heal more. You mentioned a therapist - what do they say? How might interaction continue to heal your wounds? You are writing for a reason - therefore you must have some deep rooted questions about your decision. Which leads me to the point - I see in this post a lot of “I”. But I haven’t seen this experience written from the eyes of your Father as a person. Is he truly a horrible human being? Certainly his values/culture/outlook as you described it is not aligned with yours. What is there you can work with? Might he have struggled? You have already said he has exhibited a tiny capacity to change. Is any of this worth your effort?
What are you teaching your kids? It sounds like you have raised them to be confident and have a sense of equality. You have given them surrogate grandparents for that important role. All great and wonderful. But are they being taught to true meaning of love and honor? You mentioned:
- learned to accept the pain
- always a twinge of sadness on holidays
- parents were limited people who did the best they could
- times without enough to eat or didn't have a bed to sleep on
Perhaps your Dad also feels some of these things? And I propose you are teaching your kids that differences of lifestyle and attitude mean total abandonment (easy way out if you will) - not agree to disagree and find a way to coexist with family that takes effort. This can work because you are mature and CAN SET BOUNDARIES. You can learn interaction without emotional toll. To have a relationship with you means he has to accept your boundaries - clearly put out there, clearly stated, and when broken, you immmediately leave. He’ll get it if he wants a relationship as adults. Ask yourself honestly - do you have some obligation to your Dad because he is your parent? It doesn’t mean you are actively seeing him, involving him in your life, etc. It might mean he gets enough to eat as he ages, as he doesn’t have the advantage of youth and vigor.
I’m not saying this is easy. I’m not even saying I could do it. What I am saying is this is hard emotional work and only you can decide if it is worth it and whether it is healthy for you to go there. YOU are in control. Not him now.
Did you do the caregiving for your grandparents? Or did he?
"Dad doesn't want to die alone, and he said it would make him feel happy if I helped him with mowing the lawn and gardening."
I think he's circling in to get you to be his caregiver. He only mentions yardwork for now, but you can bet there would be mission creep!
Don't undo your years of therapy. Stay far away. Your children have healthy relationships with your husband's relatives and they have your neighbors as surrogate grandparents. They don't need a relationship with your parents, considering how you were treated.
How do your children feel about meeting their grandparents?
While you might believe you are protecting them, there is the possibility you are fearful they will end up becoming fond of one another.
Isn't deprivation just another form of control? Are you not merely perpetuating the behaviour?
This is now, not then, and people change with age... or they don't; but you have taught your children to respect others equally so why would this not also extend to tolerance of individual beliefs and traditions? Do you trust your children to know the difference between respectful observance and coercive adoption?
Reconcile, agree to disagree, but please give things a chance. I think you still carry much anger and are punishing your parents unjustly by denying them their grandchildren.
Empathy will be a valuable lesson to your children and the kindest thing you can do for your parents. Who knows, it may help you resolve much anguish if you can approach this as a mature adult and, in line with your ideology, talk to your parents respectfully as equals.
I haven't been in your exact situation, but I know the pain of having a toxic parent. You are doing the best thing you can do for your children. They're at such a precarious age, and you are right to protect them from a man who would either make them feel shameful or model bad behavior towards women.
You have a beautiful life, and everything you have is because you stayed strong and didn't let yourself get dragged into his idea of what you should be. Honor that young woman who once stood up for herself and went out and built a family and a life.
You don't need to see him to know if he's changed. Of course he hasn't. They never change; they just get older. His letter even tells you he hasn't changed, with his attempt to dictate what you and his granddaughter will wear. I mean, really? That's his olive branch? It practically screams into a megaphone that he hasn't changed.
There's also no setting boundaries with parents like this. That's a trap. There's only being sucked in more and more. You and I know this.
I know it's really hard to ward off the feelings of guilt. Societal expectations don't help, even in our supposedly modern Western society. But you'll regret it if you cave now. You're not being a bad daughter. You're being a good mother. Stick to your guns.
But… GOOD FOR YOU for setting boundaries and sticking to them! You got this!
I did help my sisters with caring for my mother in small ways. I picked up prescriptions, I took Mom for rides in the car, took her to lunch. I did not do any cleaning, or other housekeeping and I never touched her except for a few awkward hugs. I am glad that we did have some good times before the end and I love the new relationships with 2 of my sisters.
What is not possible is to ever hope to have the kind of family feelings that one hears about from others. If you were abused as a child that leaves a huge internal scar that will never go away. I learned to live with it and to make a new life that made the old scars irrelevant to my new life. For decades that was enough. For me, at least, part of returning to a kind of relationship with my old family was a new thing, not an attempt to revive and mend an old thing that was broken. To know my sisters and enjoy doing a few things with them has been worth the return. I will admit, though, that I did not shed any tears when my mother died. I spoke to her an hour before she passed and her regret was that I was not my older sister. I wished her a peaceful day and left. I do not hate her, nor do I miss her. However, I am at peace that we did spend 6 years knowing each other and telling each other the stories that the other missed. It is a form of completion that is not exactly love. Not every dysfunctional family can heal, but I think that it can only happen if the one who was abused can call all the shots when reconnecting and that those who abused or were complicit in the abuse become gentled and accepting.
In the case of the OP, her father seems to be totally unchanged and no good outcome is possible. In many, probably most cases of abusive childhoods that is probably true. It can happen, though. Once in a while people do change.
He wants to meet grandchildren yet he places restrictions on what you wear, what your daughter wears. Yeah, that's a hard no from me.
What does your mom say about this or does he lot let her voice her wishes and opinions?
Many kids learn from their parents how to be a successful, independent person. Most learn because the parents set a good example how to live, how to treat people.
Then there are the parents that set an example of what not to do, how not to act. the child/ young adult makes a choice as to the path they follow.
You have spent time in therapy.
You, in your heart know what the answer is.
If you want to meet though I would suggest on "neutral" ground and do not subject your children to this until you can establish boundaries. And before you meet tell him what your boundaries are and if he crosses, you get up and leave.
I think this is a cultural thing. Doesn't look like Dad has mellowed out in his old age. You are a daughter and like most cultures, even here in the US, daughters are the ones expected to care for parents.
Tell Dad sorry the answer is NO. If he is having problems with mowing the lawn and gardening, then hire someone or downsize to an apartment. That you live in a world so different from his and you are not willing to enter his. Without his help you have a career. Two children and DH who take up your spare time. With the responsibilities you have, he cannot depend on you. And that seems what he wants.
I think if you allow him in, you "will" regret it.
What are your parents cultural/religious beliefs that make them so strict about what girls and women should wear? This too should be explained to your kids beforehand. Then let them decide if they want to meet their grandparents. You don't have to agree to start helping your parents around they house or yard, or doing anything else or them.
Your kids may only want to meet them once. Who knows? Let them be the ones who decide though.
They should not be making that decision. Children are easily influenced, he is not the kind of adult I would want my children meeting. The way he was to his own daughter is the way he will be to his granddaughter. Why put her through that.
I see no reason to disrupt your life and confuse your children. Your father chose his life and lived his life as he chose to live it. Hopefully he has friends. If not he will have the resources of the state that someone without children also has.
I would not bring chaos into my peaceful life. It is not your job to make your father happy. It never was. You recognized that. Don't lose what you already fought so hard to gain.
You could be right about the father setting things up now for future caregiving needs.
That's probably part of why he wants a family reunion. A hard NO on the caregiving or possibility of it.
People often forget that it's very common for grandparents to have a different relationship with the grandkids then they ever had with their own kids.
My mother is proof of this. She was an abusive bully to me my entire life. She's an awesome grandmother and her grandkids think she's the best thing since sliced bread.
Should they have missed out on having a wonderful grandmother because she treated me like crap and still does?
No. They shouldn't miss out. FaroffDaughter's kids shouldn't have to miss out either.
You have worked hard at making your life what it is today.
Don't let your father distract you.
Stay on course.
I might be off base here and I do not mean to offend or trigger. Skip this next paragraph if my concerns about sexual issues don't apply or will make you unhappy to read.
My "someone has sexual issues" alarm bells are ringing pretty loudly. Won't even look at you if you're wearing properly fitted clothes? That's either crazy manipulative or he knows he can't handle it. Honor the fact that at least he realizes he has sexual issues by not putting temptation in his path in the form of your daughter. Yuck.
Your heart was in the right place when you went no contact with him. You, your children and your husband are fine and happy.
Why drag in unnecessary drama to their lives?
Your father has already shown you who he is.
Continue believing it and ~ stay true to yourself and your family.
Enjoy the happy, lovely life you've made for yourselves.
It sounds like you're still at odds with yourself on this - or may need more validation in completely ghosting your parents forever. It's your decision - there are different ways to consider, but in the end, whatever brings you more peace is fine.
You must be living in a year-round warm climate because short track shorts seems like such an important issue, no? I was a bit confused - Your daughter can be proud of her gender and body and still understand that in some situations (like being in an office), that a person may need to modify their attire for that day. I don't see it as such a deal-breaker, though - they can still be who they are. For me, I'm mindful of what I decide to wear depending on who I'm with or where I'm going and it's not difficult to be flexible depending on the situation - I'm aware of who I am regardless so it's not important to me.
You don't live with your parents anymore - it's many years later and you can decide to test the waters or just leave them out of your life - hopefully, the relationship has other parts to it - or you'll find out that it doesn't.
Do you miss having a relationship with your mother - because she's still involved, correct? Your father sounds very modest - probably religious and this might just be his beliefs. But now, your grandparents are no longer in the picture....no care taking for them...and if you wanted, you can set very strong boundaries - and just test it. You can write him an email or letter - really specifying how you're wavering on re-entering them into your life because of the past and even considering it, they need to be more flexible and open to meeting you half way. Such as, you'll be wearing make-up as most women do (maybe you can modify it and wear lighter make-up when seeing him)...and just take the short shorts off the list when visiting him - how about jeans or pants ... just enforce it in the letter.
It didn't seem like there was much else - other than advising your parents that any responsibilities - such as mowing the lawn or care taking is off the table - if they want to be in your life and your children's life - then it's no responsibilities for you- no tasks - just to be with you.
If it's not acceptable, then you can feel even better about going your own way. It's ultimately your decision, but I think all relations are give and take and in the end, it really comes down to how much you want them in your life - if at all.
I was also wondering if the OPs mother tried to contact her over the years or just followed the husband's lead in general?
To the OP; you seem like you might want to test the waters and try a visit with your folks? I could be wrong, but you writing this post suggests you might be open to it, and to have your kids meet their grandparents. Compromise would be key, of course, and keeping the shorts and tank tops at home for the visit out of respect for dad's feelings. I've always dressed modestly in front of my parents; it felt awkward NOT to, actually. My father was an old school Italian immigrant with old fashioned beliefs about many things, including extended family obligations. I broke that mold when I made it clear I would not be moving them in with me, and set them both up in IL, then AL, and my mother is now living in Memory Care. I would definitely NOT agree to do chores for him though; he can easily hire a lawn service! If he wants to just meet up for a visit and to introduce himself to his grandchildren, that's one thing; but to expect and force his care wishes upon you is another.
Whatever you decide to do, best of luck.