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Hi all. My 87yo father, who is a narcissist and lives with his 84yo partner (who he dumped my mother for), has recently started to go downhill. He lives with her independently and since having a stroke 5 years ago, has decreased mobility which has been getting worse every year. Since working from home during the pandemic, I have been able to make frequent trips to stay with them for 2-3 week blocks but after that time, I start to go a little nuts and leave to go back to my own life. I live 4 hours away. When I stay with them, I don't have my own space, I sleep in a fold up camp bed in the living room (which also has the open plan kitchen) and have no privacy. His partner is OCD - I can't even cook a meal. Sometimes I sit in the bathroom with my phone just to get some space. My father is exceedingly lazy, has never take an interest in his physio and never tried to get back on his feet. I know it's hard when you're old. He is now in hospital due to ongoing stomach complaints and will be getting tests. I took the opportunity to come home and I'm only 2 days back and he's already pressuring me to return. He is guilting me with how horrible it is in the hospital and how mean they are being to him. I have no sibling assistance - one brother died and the other hasn't spoken to my Dad in over 20 years due to the child abuse he committed as a result of his narcissism. I am trapped in a cycle of anger and guilt and just need to know I am not a bad daughter. I can't - and won't - live with them full time. I just don't know why he thinks it is acceptable that I should just stop my life for weeks on end when I don't even have a decent place to sleep and am trying to hold down a full time job. Getting a hotel/airb is not an option. I am 52 years old. Sorry this is so long.

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You’re a wonderful daughter! Be kind to yourself and set boundaries. Pathological narcissists will train you to jump on command. Relax and don’t worry about them so much. They’ll survive. Just make sure they are not vulnerable to scammers and predators. Train them to call for their own transportation and setup meals on wheels. The meals on wheels volunteers can be your eyes once a week. Get cameras for security, inside and outside the home. You can check in on them, so you can work and not worry that one of them has fallen, et cetera. Get a smart smoke detector and a smart lock, too. It’s extra security and will let them stay in their home longer without bothering you so much. You can then let caregivers in remotely. Emergency personnel, too, when and if it’s needed. Tell them it’s necessary for their safety and your piece of mind. Next, get onto YouTube and look up narcissistic abuse. You need to heal and stop catering so much to your dad. There is lots of free information that will help you a lot. I started my path to healing 2 years ago. It was the best thing I did for myself. It is clear to me now why I felt sick, nervous, anxious, depressed and angry around my father. He is sick and he doesn’t see it. Typical pathological narcissist. My father also had alcohol use disorder, so there is much more to my anger and frustration. Memory care and nursing homes are so expensive, so use the cameras as babysitters. It’s so much cheaper. I live close to my dad, so it’s easier for me to go by in the morning and make 3 meals for him, give him his meds and make sure he has water, cigarettes and coffee. I then leave for the day and check in on him through the cameras. He has an iPhone and he has loved the extra security of the cameras. We had a scare when a woman snd man followed him home from the store 2..5 years ago. They were predators and he lives alone. Your father has chosen to behave the way he does. He should also expect that family will limit their time with him, if they are going to be abused. People are alone at the end of their lives for a reason: they are nasty and not appreciative. We do the best we can. You should not be your father’s slave or punching bag. When my father hurls insults and demands that I do something “right now,” I pretend I don’t hear him and I go to my car and drive away. Good luck!
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That's a very good question to be asking.

What does 'a bad daughter' mean? What does it mean to you? If you were not 'bad' - would that make you 'good'? Are there only these words available to describe daughters? 🤔

What about loyal, hardworking, intelligent, courgeous, resourceful.

Let's remove 'bad' & re-phrase it to... ??

Suggestions welcome!
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You are NOT a bad daughter, but he will certainly make you feel like everything you do is wrong. That is the nature of a narcissist. They 100% do not have the ability to see your side, see any need to behave in anyway that benefits anyone but themselves. If they are offering to do something that appears to benefit you, rest assured they have an ulterior motive. The distance you have now likely needs to increase, not decrease, if you can in any way. My FIL is the same age as your father. My SIL and BIL moved in with him several years ago and his mobility literally went out the window. My MIL passed away over 10 years ago and for about 5 years he was fine, except for emergencies, fully independent. Then they moved in and SIL's guilt over needing his help led her to doing way more than she should have for him. Once she did something once, she ended up doing it from then on out. He literally stopped doing anything for himself at all. As a result, his mobility is almost 100% gone. He is nearly bedridden. If you have no privacy now, and there is nowhere in their home for you to have your own space, do not let yourself be dragged into being there more often. Your other sibling has the right idea. If you feel you have to be involved, and I get that, I can't judge that, we are right there with you, we're in up to our eyeballs too, then here is your list of things to do - put it up on your fridge if you have to...
1. NO is a complete sentence
2. Get some therapy for yourself to deal with your own anger and guilt - he will use that and anything else he can against you.
3. Get yourself a titanium spine
4. Keep your life - you will need it
5. Do not depend on sibling assistance - your sibling has already shut that door - do not harbor resentment against them - they have their reasons and you totally understand why - but don't let them not being involved ruin that relationship. They have a right to choose just like you do. (we are less involved than SIL and BIL because we do not live there, we try to be involved, but there is only so much we can do, we do our best to preserve that relationship because it is important to us)
6. IT WILL GET WORSE - I hate to tell you that - but unfortunately as his circle of influence (read his narcissistic supply) shrinks and he loses control in other areas he will become more controlling of what he has left. And as that shrinks to just his very small world around him - his partner and you, he will try to control what you say, you do, when you do it, HOW you do it, and you will have to be strong.
7. HE will likely become more combative and angry - learn to walk away - learn to not take it personally. YOU didn't do this to him. THIS ISN'T YOUR FAULT. Narcissist parents spent YEARS brainwashing their children into believing everything is their fault and as adults it only takes a word or two for that training to kick in. I've seen this in my husband and my SIL. It's actually scary to watch. And takes a lot to break the habit.

You do actually know why he thinks it is acceptable for you to stop your life if you think about it. And that's all part of it. For a narcissist, the entire WORLD was put here to see to their needs and only their needs. So yours aren't important. It hasn't even occurred to him that he is asking you to give up anything or that you need a place to sleep, you are supposed to make sure HIS needs are met, not the other way around. It never crosses his mind that he has any responsibility whatsoever to meet your needs because that's not his job. His job is entirely to ensure that his supply lines are clear to get his own needs met.

So, you are at a crossroads. You love your father. And there are ways to deal with this in a loving way, from a distance. He can hire caregivers, you don't have to be there to take care of him. But it is going to take strength and boundaries on your part to do it.
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BurntCaregiver Aug 2021
BlueEyedGirl94,

Let me say this is one of the best responses I've ever read on the forum. You are spot on about narcissist parents and their years of brainwashing their children so when we're adults all they have to do is a word and our training kicks in. Too true that it's very hard to break out of that cycle and stop it.
It's a shame about your FIL too. That's always what ends up happening when an elderly or chronically ill person is waited on hand-and-foot. They will lose all independence even independent thought, and will become like an infant again. When that happens, a care facility can be the only solution.
I've been in caregiving for a very long time and to many people who've never been in this line of work, will think that my methods are harsh and cruel. They're not though.
For example, I refuse to spoon feed a client until they are absolutely at the end. A person will see some elderly client making a mess and say how terrible it is and that I should just feed them. No. Feeding would be easier and less messy, but not better for the client. Always preserve any level of independence. Even if a person can't do anything. They can wait. They can adapt to not getting every demand and command they have fulfilled or done the second they want it. That's also a form of independence. Caregivers need to understand about knowing when not to do everything.
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You're a good daughter trapped in a bad place. Do what you can for your father. You can't logically be in two places at once and you need to have a job because what happens when they die and you have to have funds to live on?
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Alicinia Aug 2021
Thank you. This is what my fear is. I keep reading about people who quit their jobs to take care of aging parents and then can't get back into the workforce. I'm afraid that not only is my father a narcissist but a horrible misogynist as well. I'm just a woman and this is my lot in life, to take care of aging parents. I'm not quitting my job - it's the only thing I have preventing me from being a bag lady when I'm old.
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You already know why your father thinks it's acceptable that you should just stop your life for weeks on end to take care of him.

Because he's a selfish narcissist just as you say. He doesn't care if you don't have a decent place to sleep, or if you will be able to keep your job. All that matters to him is that his needs and wants are met on his terms and in ways that he finds acceptable.
Your father and his partner need outside hired caregivers to come in and help. Of course he doesn't want strangers. Of course he doesn't want to pay for caregivers to do what he thinks you should be doing for free. Of course you're supposed to give up your life to become an servant to him and his elderly partner. Not even a servant. Lower than a domestic servant because at least they get a wage and their own quarters. They expect you to become a slave.
You say your own brother hasn't spoken to your father in over 20 years because he was abusive due to his narcissism. There's your answer right there, my friend. The next time you're vexing yourself about being a 'bad daughter', remember why your brother doesn't speak to him.
Limit your contact and the phone calls with your father and his partner. The second the conversation starts to cross over into guilt-tripping and manipulation, end the call. You don't owe either of them anything and you are not a bad daughter.
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Alicinia Aug 2021
I keep reading everyone's responses and will have to keep doing that until it all sinks in. Your slave analogy really woke me up - since January, I have spent nearly 3 months at their place, sleeping on my camp bed. Once his partner started flicking on the light first thing in the morning, I realised enough was enough. I did tell him yesterday that I can't keep sleeping in the middle of the living room like that, because his apartment is too small. He started getting really defensive about his apartment rather than seeing my point of view. Typical. Thanks so much for your support :)
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In all the time I’ve been here, VERY RARE are there posts from “bad daughters”, and you’re not even close.

It doesn’t matter what YOU ARE. HE has a spouse.

No you should NOT suspend your life to care for him. If you’d craved sleeping on a “camp bed”, you could have enlisted.

Limit the calls and contacts and be the “best” in limited spurts.
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Alicinia Aug 2021
Thank you so much. As with all the other wonderful responses on this board, I will keep rereading yours until it truly sinks in. Love your comment about enlisting! I do feel like a soldier sometimes. It's pretty degrading having to wheel it in and out of the room every day. It used to be ok for weekend visits. Now my 52 year old body just doesn't want to do it anymore. Thanks again for your support :)
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I tried to turn this around and look at it from the perspective of, “Yes, you are a bad daughter.” Such a bad daughter should not be imposing herself as caregiver to the father. Such a bad daughter should not be camping out in the living room, getting in the way of the ‘partner’. Such a bad, bad daughter should let the father and his partner live the life they chose without trying to ‘fix’ it.

Basically, I could not find any way to see you as a bad daughter. You sound extraordinarily good, above and beyond any reasonable call of duty or obligation. Go home. Be free. Be confident in who you are and how you went far above and beyond to help in the face of blatant resistance. Let your help be from a distance over the phone. Let the partner have her privacy back, too, so they can both discover if they can really manage alone. You can’t fix them, but they can destroy you. As a good daughter you need to be strong in readiness for the future, happy with yourself and your life so when you do help it is with confidence and certainty, not being ground down and convinced you are somehow ‘bad’.
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97yroldmom Aug 2021
this is so true
“You can’t fix them, but they can destroy you”.
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I would try getting a personal support worker. Some can help with physiotherapy (of course, he has to approve this). But a PSW can help by cooking means, doing dishes, light cleaning, bathing, etc. I’m sure it would be a huge load off you.

I think as children we ultimately feel as responsible for our parents as we do our children, but even so, we cannot control every aspect of their lives. If they are of sound mind, we must respect how they live their lives, even if we don’t like it. Like my mother-in-law, who hasn’t bathed in over a year. We’re starting with a PSW who we hope will help her bathe (because whoa, the SMELL), but in the end, what choice do I have? I can’t exactly drag her to the tub and force her to shower?

Just accept that you can only do what you can do. And as much as we want to do it all, we really can’t. That’s a one-way ticket to burnout.

I hope you’re able to get some help soon. Everybody can use a little bit of help.
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You're not a bad daughter, he's a bad father. You're just caught up in the infamous FOG.........Fear Obligation & Guilt, which is what dad wants.

Have a look at this wonderful article on the subject:

https://lifelessons.co/personal-development/covertpassiveaggressivenarcissist/#3

Dad needs to HIRE the help that he requires as you have your own job, your own life and your own affairs that you must attend to. It's just that simple. It's time to stop jumping through the fiery hoops to please a man who's never going to BE pleased, no matter how many times you get burned in the process. At 52 years old, NOW is the time to hear that message before it's too late & the burns are too deep to heal. It took me a long while to hear the message myself, and I got burned way too many times before I did.

Wishing you the best of luck taking care of YOURSELF now and leaving your dad's wife to care for him. She willingly took on the burden, leave her to it now. Sending you a hug & a prayer for clarity & peace.
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I just typed out an incredibly long response, but our situations are very similar. If you ever want to talk, please send me a message.
My father turned 86 last week and has sent me into an incredible guilt spiral because I had other plans and frankly, he never remembers my birthday and had a hand in ruining a lot of mine as a child. Birthdays are for children in my opinion. My brother moved out of state right when my father (and MIL) started to decline physically and I deal with that anger as well.
I no longer answer his phone calls, I let them go to voice mail and call back the next day (I would call sooner if emergency but so far it hasn't been). I have to have boundaries and prep time for his calls. He called me distressed this past fall in a fight with his wife demanding I find placement for him. I took off work, had interviews at places and he called next day changed his mind.
He is one hour from me, but it might as well be 4 since I can't drive the semi laden route to his house (moved to be with wife after my mother's death) due to my glaucoma damaged eyes. My husband has to drive me and he has his own 91 year old MIL to care for, so admittedly the visits are rare and short. He is a nasty, selfish, mean man and he is growing more so with his decline. I find it very difficult to find compassion.
Please let me know if you ever need to vent.
Just want to add that I took my dad to the VA to try to get them some in home health care, I arranged it and when the caregiver arrived (late, due to misunderstanding), he sent her away - my stepmother explaining that she was a large, black woman and my dad doesn't want that. What an incredibly racist and privileged act! I do not know how to love this man, and never have. So at this point, if what I can do to help is not accepted, then I am of no use to him. And we all know what happens to useless narcissist supply.
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BurntCaregiver Aug 2021
bluebell19,

Do nothing for your father and his wife then. This is the way of so many of our elderly "loved ones". They need a lot of help and often can't do anything for themselves, yet they won't accept help unless it's completely on their terms, and exactly the person they want.
My mother is the same as your father. So some time ago I gave her two choices.
Accept the help I offer on the terms I offer it. Or the choices are do without or go into a nursing home.
She doesn't want to go into an AL or a care facility so she knows I will not tolerate any complaining, fight-picking, orneriness, guilt-tripping, or instigating.
She knows to keep these things in check with me now and this is recent because I was always the lightening rod for her abuse. Not so much these days because she knows I'm serious. Sometimes she gets on the pity pot about how I don't really care about her and so on. I tell her the truth, that she gets more from me than she deserves.
You're doing the right thing. Either your narcissistic father can accept your help on your terms, or he can do without it,
Good for you!
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You are not a bad daughter, but one that has been guilted into your dads care. And that needs to stop now! Your dad is not your responsibility, and never has been.
Your dad gets to now live with the choices he has made in his life, and let his partner care for him. And if she is not able to care for him, then he(not you)needs to make arrangements for his own care, whether that means hiring some outside help to come in, or finding the appropriate facility for him to move to.
You have your own life and don't need to give up any more of your precious time and money to look after a dad, who honestly doesn't appreciate it or you anyway. So stop letting him use you, and start saying no to him when he wants your help of any kind. And get on with enjoying your life, as life is short. We only get one go round here, so it's up to us to make the most and best of it. That's what I'm hoping you will do. God bless you.
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Alicinia Aug 2021
Thank you so much for your wonderful advice which I have to admit I'll need to keep rereading until it sinks in. Fundamentally, I know he is using me. I'm going to look into getting some therapy for this. Thank you again :)
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You are under NO obligation to care for him. Your brother has the right idea: boundaries. You feel "guilty" because you are a good person with a conscience, but really you may be feeling grief for this situation, and there's a difference.

If it helps you to back out you can research resources for them (contact social services to get them an in-home assessment or services), show them how to look up their local area's Agency on Aging, download a Medicaid application form or each of them but do not continue to be their indentured servant. It is immoral and unethical and dysfunctional for them to assume you into this responsibility. You will burn out and they won't care. Your father is a full-grown adult who had the entirety of his life to plan for his decline and exit and chose NOT to do so. Instead he selfishly thought he'd summon his slave to do his bidding. Sound harsh? He's harsh. So, run away and save yourself.

Many on this forum have gone to or are currently in therapy for being in the exact situation as you. A good therapist will help you see the healthy boundaries and give you objective wisdom about how to manage through this time in your life. It would be worth every penny. Wishing you much clarity and wisdom and peace in your heart that making yourself a priority is right and good.
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Alicinia Aug 2021
Thank you so much, some of what you wrote brought me to tears. There are days when I wish I had done what my brother has done. I can't believe he alienated 2 out of 3 of his kids to the point where he only has one left who bothers. I am so out of it at the moment that therapy hadn't even crossed my mind but I think I need to get some. Thank you again for helping me.
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You are not a bad daughter! You have the right to live your own life! Try to find a compromise which would work for both of you, but do not feel a bad person for wanting your life back!

I share this quote by Oscar Wilde, I think most of us - especially me - should keep repeat it as a mantra
Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live
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Alicinia Aug 2021
I love that quote and it is so, so true. Inside, I sometimes feel like a teenager who doesn't know her voice. I know I need some therapy for that. Thank you for your support, it means a lot to me and you're right, I need to think of a compromise that will work for all of us.
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Hi--It's not acceptable, but at this late date he won't change. Just 'gray rock' his comments and get off the phone (if you even choose to answer his calls--why not take a break for a bit?). Not your problem.
You sound like you feel a bit trapped...if you find that you need some extra backup, see if talking to a counselor or therapist can help. They will confirm that you are spot on with your decision to distance yourself. Treat yourself this week and have a lovely nap stretched out all diagonal on your own bed :)
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Alicinia Aug 2021
I am definitely going to look into therapy. Just reading all your kind responses has brought on floods of tears and not because you're agreeing with me but because I can see how off kilter this is. He has no friends and destroyed my family for nothing and now he wonders why he is all alone. Thank you again for your support :)
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You told us the reason. He is a narcissist.

He doesn't CARE about how you feel.

Please take care of you. Let him and his partner take care of HIM.

When he complains, say "I'm so sorry to hear that".

"No, I can't possibly do that" is my standard reply to impossible requests that are impositions.
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Alicinia Aug 2021
Yeah, you're right. I always knew his narcissism would make this stage of my life all the more painful but I could never have prepared for this and its only going to get worse. I like your response to the impositions. Short and to the point! I need to learn to do that. Thank you again for helping me.
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