Can my Dad fire me as his POA when he cannot make sane decisions on where he will live?

I suspect that you are fired, and are no longer authorized to act on Dad's behalf.

Dad is gonna do what Dad is gonna do. Which is ... what? If he has no money, how is he going to check into a motel? None of his children will take him in. His wife is not going to take him in. Where is he going to go?

Has the doctor reported him to the DMV, so that his recommendation against driving has some legal basis? Has his license been revoked, pending a driving test?

Have you reported his threats of homicide and suicide to his doctor? To the police?

I know that Adult Protective Services tries to protect vulnerable adults from exploitation, abuse, etc. from other people. I don't know what they do regarding vulnerable adults who are a threat to themselves. I think I would give them a call. Explain that you have been trying to protect your father from his own mental impairments but that now you have no authority. You are afraid of him winding up on the street. He needs help with his medications and he shouldn't be driving. He talks about killing his wife and himself. Ask their advice. Even if this is not a situation they would get involved in, perhaps they can suggest a course of action for you.

My heart goes out to you. Although he doesn't realize it, your dad is lucky to have someone as concerned about him as you are. (And, of course, it is NOT your fault he is in a nursing home.)

Do you know what stage of dementia he is in? Does he have Alzheimer's, vascular dementia, or some other form? I ask this because if he is in a late stage, his doctor can write a letter that your father is no longer competent to make financial or medical decisions for himself. If he is deemed incompetent, he cannot revoke the POA (assuming it is durable) easily. And if he is incompetent, you can apply for guardianship if you care to go that route. Guardianships take at least 3 months to take effect from what I've read, and look to be a bit of pain in the backside, but it can be necessary in some cases.

I should have added that many people are still legally competent in early to middle stages of dementia, so if they want to change the POA, they are able to.

Wow - so sorry you are going through this. Sounds like guardianship is more what you need. He isn't making good decisions, sounds incompetent, needs someone to assist in his affairs. Read JessieBelle's advice. My husband is going after guardianship of his mother & the court's are slow plus overall it's a slow process. First, you must find a geriatric doctor to submit testing and willing to write a report IF the doctor feels guardianship is right for that person or are they competent enough to be on their own. IF declared incompetent, then seek an attorney experienced in this field. Next, apply for bond (required here in Ohio). Once bond is approved, pay and take back to attorney. Next step, attorney sends out notification to other siblings that guardianship has been requested - will the siblings contest? If not, it proceeds to court for hearing. IF siblings protest, it will delay things and a judge will have to decide "who" is best to be said guardian. This is the process we are currently going through - and it feels like it is taking forever. Best wishes to you. Hang in there!

Right now his car is here at my house which is 40 miles from the nursing home he is at. I have not reported his driving situation to the police as he has not had his car, yet. I don't know how long he will stay in the nursing home. If he leaves, it will be against drs. wishes.The dr. did not deem him incompetent but does realize he makes poor decisions. His physical state is why he needs a nursing home. He also lies to me all the time. He told his lawyer and dr. that his sister would let him live there, but when I called her, she said no way. I have thought about the guardianship thing, but not sure if it could get done before he checks out and goes on his own. My sisters would not contest it at all as they want to part of what he does. They don't even go visit him. His wife is one year older than I am and now she has a boyfriend too. That really upsets my dad. I know he is going through a lot, but he needs me for the financial stuff. He even asked a visiting family member of another resident to take him to his bank where he drew out his whole social security check and had in his wallet in his room at nursing home. He won't let me spend any of his money for minutes on his cell phone as he is worried who is going to pay the nursing home bills. His wife should be responsible until the divorce is final and settled. But now he has fired me, so I don't know what else I can do. I will have no say in anything. I am just so upset. I wanted to go see him today and bring him some things, but don't know what to do. I am always upbeat when I am there and visit with all the other residents that smoke outside with him. They are all so nice. But then he says, they all hate it here too and want to go home. That is normal for them to wish they were at home, but he cannot keep reminding them they want to leave. They will all get depressed!

Thanks for further explanation, bossygirl. I think that you are going to have to accept that you cannot control your father. Even if you were his guardian you could not ensure that his conversations with other residents were upbeat. You cannot make him buy minutes for his cell phone. His doctor does not consider him incompetent ... just making poor judgments. Can you obtain guardianship over someone who is theoretically competent? I don't know, but I think it would be a real struggle.

It sounds like your father has had a lifetime of poor judgment and bad behavior. He has managed to alienate his children (excpet you), their spouses, his sister, and at least one wife. That kind of pervasive and intense rejection is not created by a few poorly chosen words spoken in anger. This guy has been pushing people away for a lifetime. There are consequences to that kind of behavior.

It is greatly to your credit that you are hanging in there and trying to do what is best for him. I think you need to recognize and accept your limitations in that regard. He fired you as POA. His doctor and his lawyer think he is competetent to make such decisions. Continue to visit him, if you like, but for your own sake, practice some letting go. You mention feeling at the edge of a nervous breakdown. Please get some counselling. You deserve support and understanding and help in sorting out what you can/should try to control and what you need to let go of.

Best wishes to you in this painful struggle.

What will happen if father has no power of attorney?

Unfortunately I went through a similar situation; however, my father was declared incompetent by a geriatric specialist. A strange woman took him to various capacity assessors to deem him capable to revoke/appoint a new poa, so he gave poa to her. All we could do was fight it in court. We lost $5000 just starting the process and decided to save ourselves before we lost more. You have to let go. I was obsessed with controlling things and wanting him to be cared for. Sometimes there are things beyond our control. Your father can't reason or make good decisions anymore. Often, only family members can really see this and no one else cares. You can't fight a system that doesn't protect what's right. Don't make yourself sick over this. I still think about my situation everyday but it doesn't control my life anymore.

wow! i don't think he was of sound mind to make a poa change; i went to an attorney with my mom 5 years ago to update her trust and he said no; he could tell she wasn't in a place to make decisions. Hence what this person said "Your father can't reason or make good decisions anymore" which would fall under the changing of POA. I think the attorney exploited your father and took his money when you dad is confused as hell.

Surely if you contact an attorney some kind of emergency filed to get you in front of a judge so that will give you time to have your dad evaluated. Put the emphasis on him threatening murder suicide with the soon to be ex. Just my thoughts. Personally, (which I have been known to do) I would take myself to the prosecuting atty in your cty and sit there till someone saw me. Whether you believe your dad would shoot the woman or not, this will give you the ammo you need to bring everything to a halt. Then the state will ORDER a mental inquest on your dad. I really do hope you try this. Remember, don't call, GO THERE!!! good luck, lisa

My mom is 82 with moderate dementia. It is very stressful when my mom doesn't understand why she can't have a checkbook in her purse. I am her Power of Attorney. It would be a disaster with her checking account if I let her keep a checkbook on her. I give her cash when she needs it, and I take care of all the shopping. My mom has more memory issues and confusion. I don't know what I should do to change her mind about having a checkbook on her. She keeps thinking that she needs to go to the bank and order more checks. I have all of her checks to protect her checking account.

I opened a separate checking account for my husband with a small balance. He can take that checkbook when we are out together and he can write a check, which seems to make him feel good. When I wasn't going to be with him, I persuaded him to leave the checkbook at home, to help prevent identity theft.

I like what jeannegibbs suggested.

That's where a document from a neurologist comes in handy....if he is not competent then I don't know that you can be fired...

So he would have to see a neurologist? He probably won't go. He got mad at my husband the other day when he told Dad that he needs to go back to the nursing home as he is not taking care of himself. Dad took a swing at him and about fell down the porch steps. He is so out of control. He got his social security check from his bank and has no idea where the money is. He also has a ticket stub from the aisle in his car, but says he didn't go gambling. I am about ready to commit him to a mental health place.

Some doctor of some kind has to deem him not competent..a neurologist that is familiar with dementia is usually the best some pcp's don't see it...

Maybe the doctor at the NH will write one...:)

bossygirl,

I believe that you could have your father involuntarily committed to the mental ward of a hospital where he would be completely evaluated. To do this, you must go before a magistrate and convince them that he is a danger to himself and/or to others.

Hello: Dad (92) 24/7 self financing $7,500/mo care in nursing home. Is now formally declared incompetent. Through an unfortunate set of circumstances ( I will leave it there) - an attorney who helped us setlle our mother's estate - invited himself to help with Dad. My sister abused her DPOA by gifting away several $100's of dollars of which she even gfited herself. I blew the whistle! So Dad's attorney invites himself to being DPOA - inspite of my father insisting that I take care of that as I am VERY familiar with the large family trust. "NO".. attorney just goes and "helps himself' .. registers it at the courthouse.. done. A few weeks later Dad is napping.. attorney wakes him and asks him to "approve" one little page. Dad asks what it's for Attorney: "Oh it's something that will make it very hard for your son or daughter to ever sue me". Upshot - now he IS Dad's attorney, holds DPOA.. just had Dad authorize him to be CO living Trustee - and next Sole Survivor Trustee. All this - he's a notary - but as GOD as my wittness - there were not TWO disinterested wittnesses present - no "seal" pressed. How can ONE man wear ALL these different hats? I have struggled to have him removed for nearly 2 years. My sister is stubborn as a mule. She should just be glad she did not blow that $225 in gift checks and one for herself out in CA. jAIL TIME and immediate disinheritence! So - TWO years have flown by - the FISCAL CLIFF - whatever CRAP they are calling it today - the Estate - Death Tax that is to revert to 1M on 01-01-13 at 12:01AM ... anyone who has MORE than1 million dollars when they die will have to fork over 55% of it. Right now.. if you are single and have 5.3M you can give it away tax free until 12-31-12.. I don't CARE what the media says or what "armchair warriors" speculate whether Congress will change it to perhaps 2M or 3M being exempted. So with ALL of this drama as a backdrop. This "gentleman" has "offered to step down" with two stipulations of who he will turn the trust managment over to. I have MANY questons for sure. I have been told by well intentioned discount lawyers that all I need to do is mail him a letter and ask for any invoices and dad's records! DUH!.... How can or "CAN" a benefificiary to a living trust ASK or actually request the attorney to quit?

This is VERY complicated as he has so many "powers"

I would LOVE to have a talk with the BOARD about that afternoon he tip toed in to obtain Dad's signtuares essentially giving him complete control - WHEN DAD was "not up to par" - attorney even told me "not to bother your father about anything with business - just the evening before"..

SCUM SCUM SCUM... WAKE UP FOLKS - IF any of you have NOT looked at your estate planning - DO SO - this will be the LARGEST transfer of wealth in histrory - and ultimately the majority of it going to our favorite "Charity"...

Suggestions HOW / CAN we fire this attorney now that dad IS incompetent - please dont suggest he needs a guardian... he WILL need a NEW Durable Power of Attorney.... "Technically" only the grantor of a trust (DAD) while competent is the ONLY one who CAN say "You're FIred"...''

We Stand to loose millions of dollars if this current "gentleman" refuses to quit!

Hope that NONE of you are in any crazy situation as this. Money is neutral. It is all the CRAZY things that CRAZY people do with it! Thanks!!!!! Clint

How do you find out if a patient has been formally diagnosed with dementia?

Does your dad have access to a gun? If not you may not be able to get anything accomplished regarding that impulsive statement your dad made.

And he sounds very impulsive. But you can only do so much and it sounds like you're doing what you can but if your dad is allowed to walk out of the NH on his own there's nothing you can do to stop him other than be there with him 24/7 and that's not possible. Of course that's not what you want for him but if he's being allowed to make his own choices there's not a whole lot you can do to keep him from making those choices.

So take care of YOU. Do not let this stress make you sick. If you have to go several days without seeing him in the NH then that's what you have to do. Get some rest. Mental and physical. You can't control your dad. He doesn't sound competent to me but from what you wrote this behavior of his goes back a long way and everyone is familiar with it since no one will take him in. If this is how he is there's nothing you can do to change it. We can't control other people's behavior. If he walks out of the NH and starts wandering around with no money, looking for a motel, he'll end up in police custody and maybe then you can get something done. You will have proof that he's not of sound mind. But until he takes an impulsive action there's very little you can do to help him.

You are not responsible for his actions. You are not responsible for him. You can't run around all day everyday worrying about what he might do. Deal with him on a day to day basis. One day at a time. And give yourself some time to just relax and not deal with it at all.

Glafar, Who is the patient? Is it a relative?

You may not be able to find out unless you have the patient's permission to know their medical information. If they have a caregiver, the caregiver probably knows the diagnosis.

If you can, dis-associate yourself from him and all his affairs. He is in the crash-and-burn phase. Adult Protective Services will need to corral him at some point. Warn them if he has a gun. He's still sane enough to appear in charge of his own affairs but he's too demented to have any sense left. Report him to APS, write a letter to his treating doctor that your relative is making decisions dangerous to himself and others, put his car in storage away from your home and don't take phone calls from him. I'm sorry, this is a very tough stage with stubborn, resistant seniors who refuse good advice and act out like a spoiled 2 year old. Put the responsibility on the professionals, the doctors, case managers, and APS. Save your own mental health.

his statement about wanting to get a gun and kill himself and another person is grounds enough to consider him a danger to himself and others as well as to have him given a psychological examination in the psych ward of a hospital. Does the nursing home he is in know of his plans?

I am POA for my sister. She has dementia and is in an assisted living situation. My brother and his wife are trying to convince her to come and live with them. Those two do not want to co-operate with the rest of the siblings or my sisters children. They continually interfere with the process we have set up. They are confusing my sister and working on her to leave the care center. As POA what can I do to stop them from taking her out of the center or even stop them from seeing her?

i have a dear friend that is in a nursing home, she fell in love with a man in her apartment where she lived before she was placed in the nursing home, her daughter put her in the nursing home to keep her from this man, that she loves dearly, her daughters will not allow her to have any contact with this man at all, they went as far as putting a ppo out on this 82 yr old man to them to away from each other, they are both so heartbroken, they did say that she is incompetent, can she still leave the nursing home to live her life, not to mention they also have a tether on her ankle, its like she is a prisoner in there, its not fair what they have done to her, and him, what can we do to help, please gave me some advise, i promised her i would get her out of there, she was happy for the first time in a long time, when she fell in love with this man

Can you just walk out of a Nursing Home if you have been declared incompetent ?

She has a tether on her ankle? Have you seen this gor yourself, or are you taking your frien's word for that? Does she have dementia?

If your friend has been declared incompetent, and has a guardian (whether her daughter or an appointed guardian) then they have control of her in the way that a parent has over a minor child, as to where she lives.

I would sympathize with your friend in conversation, but try to steer the conversation towards the activities that she enjoys at the facility.

I have POA over my alcoholic mom and dad with dementia, they are together in an assisted living that specializes in dementia. My brother and I have been made the trustees of their estate because their living will states that if 2 different Drs declare them incompetent, we take over. My mother was forced by APS out of her home last July after numerous incidences of her being passed out on the urine and feces covered floor of her home, while dad had gone to buy her more wine with no drivers license, insurance or valid car registration. Dad would be pulled over by police that would drive him home, then call me to pick up his parked car, with no incident, making it impossible to convince dad he can't drive with his revoked license! Now an omnibudsperson has been called by my mother who is demanding to go home so she can drink and this person is telling me I must now go thru a conservator ship to keep them safe in assisted living?? I have 2 different dr's letters stating they r incompetent to make health or financial decisions, their POA is revoke able as long as they r competent, which they r clearly not?? When APS got involved they told me to conserve them or they would, now I'm being forced to because of the omnibudsman?? APS stated they will not get involved in writing a letter stating they can't return back home, however once they do go home, my brother and I can call and they will get involved once history repeats itself??? So now I'm being forced to fight for conservator ship?

My brother has medical and financial power of attorney, yet she is living in filth. He does not take her to the doctor. I took her to the doctor and he refused to give me the insurance information. He then scolded me for taking my 90 mother, who said her head hurt and felt dizzy, to the doctor. He said I'm just over reacting and that I should just give her some water. My other brother, who lives with her, is trying to prevent me from visiting. When I am there, I clean the sheets and the bathrooms. He feels threatened by this, as the house is willed to him. I believe that my mother was coached into this will and would never leave me out. She told me she wanted everything divided equally and was unaware that the house goes to him. Her retirement was to go to me and my other brother who has POA. However, my oldest brother has drained her accounts to practically nothing. What can I do?