Have any of you tried counseling with your loved one (without dementia) in assisted living?

Get counselling for yourself, but do not expect your NPD mother to participate. By their nature Narcs are incapable of empathy or caring how their actions impact others.

It does not matter if going Grey Rock pisses her off. You are doing it for your sanity, not for her.

I got counseling for myself. Elderly people are pretty set in their ways. I am continuing to learn how to cope and deal with hurtful remarks. What I thought was mom being self involved came out months later as a dementia issue. Her cloying nonstop needs were the beginning of cognitive loss and now full blown dementia.

With dementia she cannot learn anything new. Leave her be and take care of yourself now.

Totally agree with the other 2 answers. Your mum sounds classic NPD like mine- the reaction to your trip is classic. It’s unbearable to her that she isn’t the object of attention and you did something for yourself. Therefore she has to guilt you.

You don’t NEED to call her twice a day/ that’s like willingly being on a power leash that she yanks. I would DREAD my mom’s calls and eventually reduced them down to 2 a week. Got off the phone quickly.

Counselling yes. For you. She would say there is nothing wrong with her. Don’t bother asking her to go with you as she’ll attack you at the mere mention there is sthing wrong with her. And ask the counsellor to help you with tactics as you reduce contact - on your terms- so that you can live your life.

Some things I learned (am 52) in even 5 sessions of counselling (find an expert NPD counsellor- and read up online and youtube about ‘disarming NPD tactics’) is that there will never come a time when your NPD relative says you’ve done enough. Never will they say things like ‘am proud of you/ go and take time for yourself’

In the case of parents, the approval we so desperately crave from parents will never come and you have to realise they are incapable of it and ‘approve’ yourself/ be proud of who you are. A man with 1 leg cannot run. You cannot reason with an NPD person nor can they ever put themselves in your shoes.

You are wasting years of your life trying. You do not get that time back and the stress can be linked to all sorts of diseases.

I wasted years of tears, guilt, made my little kids and husband’s life more sad than it needed to be UNTIL I mentally separated from her. A call every few days is plenty - BECAUSE you have your OWN life and you do NOT need to answer when she starts with the questions that aim to get to the ‘criticism point’ where she atacks you with any info you gave her. I believe NPD people are incapable of love, only of manipulation.

- where were you
- why didn’t you pick up the phone
-clearly you don’t care about me
- i’m forgetting I have a daughter

etc.. they are the rantings of a diseased person.

Let me give an example You don’t start to feel that you might have ‘deserved it’, if a madman on the street spits at you.

It’s about them not you. An NPD person should be viewed in a similar way. Their anger is about them not you. It’s got nothing to do with you, They are not the parent who ‘has a point.. maybe I should do X better’

Do not give your mum much info about your life (and especially fun) because for NPD people info is just a weapon used to attack you. (example- when I had a miscarriage I didn’t tell her. A family member in the country I had the miscarriage in told her (against my wishes) and that started years and I mean years of every kind of criticism about ‘it’s your fault, a miscarriage doesn’t just happen, what did you do, can’t even give me grandkids’ etc.

Oh.. another thought. Write down a list of all the things that seemed ‘odd’ about her reactions as a parent (eg fell and hurt knee when 8 parent scolded me for ripping dress no comfort for knee). Then email that list to the counsellor ahead of time so that they have background before the session. Be impartial and just state the facts. Also include a list of things she says about you. ‘you don’t call me enough’ etc etc so the counsellor knows what her reactions are.

It was a HUGE relief for me to hear from a pro that ‘she is clearly NPD with some BPD’

Huge relief BUT also a sadness because it was confirmation that I will never have a normal mother. By then I was 45 so the relief of hearing unequivocally from a neutral party what she has, really helped From that day the healing began and I no longer felt like a puppy dog trying to please. I had always lied to her in order to live my life (and went to another continent.. distance is helpful, holidays were never told to her, etc) and the counsellor said don’t call it lies, you are setting boundaries to survive. No guilt.

Yes find help for yourself - the NARCISSIST will never change or EVER think they are the problem. YOU ARE THE PROBLEM? It took me to almost 59 years old for the light bulb to come on. To realize it's HER not ME! I've been an awesome daughter to her and have given up years of holidays, weekends, privacy, etc. because I thought I had to do it - to win her approval, love, etc. It's a sick, twisted relationship. Finally after years of verbal abuse, criticism, etc. we had a blow up and I wrote her a long letter to tell her I would not continue this type of relationship. Things got a bit better but she still slips into the trying to tell me how to live my life - what I can buy, and the questions about every freaking thing I do. I'm mad at myself because I gave her the best years of my life - I became depressed and anxious due to the complicated, and manipulative relationship. I mean if your own mother doesn't approve of you - then who will? I had unstable relationships with men because I couldn't trust, and would go over the top trying to win their love. It took counseling to realize I was the normal one and she was the problem. Plus reading several articles and realizing she met every criteria of a NARC MOTHER. I finally learned to love and approve of myself. I don't need her approval any more. Right now she is 93 and has moved back in with me. Yes I tolerate her and it's stressful at times. I plan to find a place for her soon because I'm still working F/T. Oh yes - she wants me to quit my job and I guess take care of her - nope not happening. She has money and can hire some caretakers. I'm almost 60 and am ready to travel a bit, meet new people, visit old friends and enjoy my life before something happens to me. I've suffered physical and mental ailments but I will not let her take me down any further. She has pushed away most of the family and might likely live a lonely life but I'm tired of feeling sorry for her. Hang in there -

In my experience, narcissists cannot and will not be counseled. Once they hear the word, the mind shuts off and goes into denial. Most psych Drs won’t deem someone narcissistic because once they look up the word they lie to themselves thus denying treatment. Complete shutdown because they don’t believe it could possibly be them.
Also as another mentioned they are set in their ways as seniors. You’ve been put in a huge bind and it’s unfair. You already know it’s going to take everything out of you, which is good you’ve identified your limits. Even if she was grateful and kind (which is a low percentage from what I learned here) it’s very hard to take on the role that would normally require 3-4 shifts of trained nurses, dietician, pharmacist, therapist, behavioral specialists, mobility or occupational therapist etc. You don’t need to be fragile minded or soft to get your feelings hurt by narcissism, she’s got it down to a science especially at this age.
Perhaps your brother in law would be open to paying for in home care since he so kindly delegated you?
moving also is harder so moving her twice ( you’re place then a care facility) might pose challenges on it’s own... what if living with you is permanent because she refuses to go? Then comes the real problem because nothing you do is right in her eyes, but she won’t leave? It’s going to consume you, you’ve already seen it but having it all day every day under your roof directed at you while you slave over a frail body and a manipulative mind is the worst thing I ever signed up for personally, THE MOST THANKLESS JOB. If you’re unsure now I think other options should be considered. I certainly wish you the best.

My mother started getting psychiatric treatment when her dementia started surfacing. It presented as a worsening of her narcissistic tendencies. I attended some of her sessions with her and every time I started talking, she talked over me refuting everything I was saying and criticizing me. Same as she has done every time in my whole life that I tried to talk to her about my feelings. Counseling never would have worked with her because she cannot see that she is capable of wrong—it’s everybody else who is wrong and she is the only one who is right.
Like your mother, she used to demand that I call her often, but I didn’t follow her guidelines and just let her complain about how I didn’t care about her. Her entire conversation was so negative I just didn’t have the energy for it. When we did “talk”, I just went grey rock and tuned out all the complaining and criticism. I let her do all the talking because it’s near impossible to get a word in anyway, and telling her about myself only set me up for being gossiped about and criticized.
I found a very great ALF for her and ensured that she would be well taken care of. While visiting was possible, I went to see her twice a month. Now that we can only FaceTime, same schedule. Sometimes she’s in a mood and refuses to talk. Fine, I wait until the next two-week call to try again. I don’t feel bad about this at all. I’m not going to fake a close relationship now. I have been told by family-and HER friends-that I have been a very good daughter to her and I agree. Her narcissism will never allow us to be any closer and that is not my fault. If you want to call your mom less, you are still a good daughter. You can’t fix her illness unless she wants to fix it, and the nature of the disorder is that she can’t see that she is disordered.
Sorry this was so long.

Your question says that you are dealing with someone who DOES NOT have dementia. I'd just add that when you have a person who has Narcissistic personality disorder, it's sort of difficult to recognize some of the symptoms of dementia, because, they are similar. Such as self centered, rude, uncaring, unrealistic, demanding, manipulative, lying, aggressive, etc. Where does one thing stop and the other begin? lol It's difficult to say, but, assuming that there is no dementia, and it's SOLEY Narcissistic personality disorder, I'd consider the following and I'm NO expert:

I'd let go of the idea that this person is going to come around to being normal. And, if she's in AL, how would you attend counseling with her? What would she give in a counseling session? Why would she care to attend counseling? And, why would you have expectations of something different?

Gray Rock may work for some. People vary. I have tried a number of things. I suppose really accepting reality is a process. It's taken me many years to accept it.

I'd focus on my own counseling. I have gotten pretty good self satisfaction from having the person with NPD believe what they want, but, doing things exactly the way that I want to do them. I get a little tickled, because, I'm pretty good at shoveling it deep. The only way a person with NPD is happy, is if they think they have you under their thumb, miserable and serving them. So, that's the impression they get, but, it couldn't be further from the truth. Reminds me of the song, Who's Zooming Who? lol I'm not sure how many years you have dealt with it, but over many years, you really do get a tough skin. They may make out like a victim, but, I have their number.

From the words from Desiderata, "As much as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. But, you have to keep to your own truth too.

Get counseling for yourself, but don't expect mom to join in.

My mother just cannot be 'nice' to me for more than a few minutes before she begins the list of things I do wrong. She's completely unaware she does this.

Trying to talk to my sibs and they don't 'get it'.

20 years of on again, off again therapy has helped, but truly, I will not have true peace in my relationship with her in this life. It's her 90th birthday next week, I can't believe she's still here. we're supposed to write her a letter for a scrapbook and my heart is NOT in it. I think I will just get a card and sign it from both DH and myself.

Grey Rock works well for me. She can't remember my phone number, so she never calls and I am trying to heal from a year of cancer and chemo. Being around her puts me in the worst headspace. I don't know why, but she triggers me to be the worst person I can be.

Um, no. Asking a narcissistic personality type to go to counseling is like asking her to parade around naked in front of the entire ALF. She would likely rather die than do it, like my mother. The few times I've tried to suggest 'self help' to her back in the day before she developed dementia she bit my head off and gave me The Silent Treatment even WORSE than usual. Yeah, no. Don't bother, that's my suggestion.

And my question to you is this: if mommy dearest is treating you like such a pile of garbage, why are you calling her twice a day and subjecting yourself to the torture? Oh, I know.......because you were conditioned to do so, as I was, from birth. I too was calling my mother 2x a day in her ALF, thereby ruining my morning AND my evening until one day, my DD said to me, hey ma, WHY are you DOING this? Call grandma ONCE a day MAX please, okay? And I thought, OMG, this girl is right! I am subjecting myself to torture for NO GOOD REASON. I am a good person who does not deserve to be treated badly.

From that moment on, I stopped calling my mother twice a day and went down to once (which is plenty bad enough, thank you very much). Nothing works with her, either. Gray rock, etc. the only thing that DOES work is setting down boundaries of MY choosing and then sticking to them. For instance, when she is in a horrid mood when I call, I will tell her "Call me back at another time when you are in a better mood, mom". Then I hang up the phone after saying Goodbye. Not gonna be treated like a garbage can, nope.

Yesterday I called her and she said she had just gotten back to her room but wasn't feeling well (after a whole day of being out in the activity room). So I said, Oh You Are Just Getting In Now? To which she said, "What would you have me do, CRAWL back to my room?" So I told her that comment was uncalled for and rude, and to call me when she was in a better mood, buh bye. Dementia or no dementia, rude & obnoxious behavior is not something I'm willing to tolerate. Period. I've put up with enough crap for the past 63 years and now it's MY turn to look after ME.

Nothing is 'worthwhile' with these women except hanging up the phone or cutting a visit short when the behavior goes south. That gives the power back to US and takes it away from THEM, changing the rules of their stupid little games.

And who cares if Gray Rock pisses her off? What DOESN'T piss off a narc? I can name about 3 things and 2 of them involve butt kissing and compliments.

Good luck, my friend. Please begin to recognize your worth and your mother's lack of empathy for that worth. NOW.

https://www.aconsciousrethink.com/6158/gray-rock-method-dealing-narcissist/

How to go ‘Grey Rock’

I had to look this up as had never heard of it.. this link has wise advice.

I am 41 now. I was 20 had just been through a severe case of food poisoning involving hepatitis A and E coli from a burger joint. It took me literally about 10 months to recover due to it being in my blood stream, my mom was doing her usual thing traveling. I had came back from across the country after taking care of my dad who had colon cancer so I have always been a care giver. I moved to help when I was 16 they just divorced and my dad was getting ready to marry someone else, (whole other story) I wanted to try and start a actual life and felt like counseling would be a great start, I was truly wrong and won't ever be doing that again. SHE LIED AND DENIED EVER SINGLE THING. Even things that weren't relevant. The other thing that was crazy to me was that my granny who I was staying with at the time didn't try and defend that the statements that I made were true so I just sat there looking like a dummy in disbelief just devastated. The relationship went down from there over the years even telling me that she hoped that I had a nice life about 4 years ago because I didn't get back to her as soon as SHE felt that I should. We had a few issues after that and I decided that it was her loss she has never been supportive of me, I always felt that she never wanted me just wanted to not have to go to college or work. It was hard for me to accept but I knew that I had to see about my life and no one else being a only child but it what I am determined to do. That is not something that I have to deal with. I have been nothing but helpful to her so why would I let someone that I gave me part of my DNA, treat me like dirt. I refuse. I do want therapy for myself in the future.

It's worthwhile if all of you are vested in the process and want to change how you all interact. Honesty ius paramount. I would suggest finding a therapist who specializes in personality disorders. Ask for recommendations from the physician as well as assisted living. I would do a phone interview prior to an in person session. If you don't click after 2 in person sessions, I would look for someone else. I hope your mother is willing to go,if not, go yourself. Good luck.

If your mom has dementia, I would recommend to not bother with counselling together. She will not remember the conversations or try to use the advice of the therapist.
It may be worthwhile to go to counselling alone to find more coping strategies for your mother's difficult personality. She will probably never change, but that doesn't mean you need to suffer.

Imho, counseling would only work with a person who is of lucid mind and that she is not.

Are you suggesting that a counsellor could talk your mother out of being a narcissist? Really? It’s the victim who might benefit from a counsellor!

I think a few responses indicate they misunderstood about dementia. You said she does not have dementia - she just plays the mean card a lot. I would assume she's been good at it for many years. When she is unhappy it has to be someone else's fault - like blaming you for dumping her in a facility. When you know the cork is about to blow from the bottle, tell her you have to answer the other phone or someone at the door and hang up quickly. You can always call back later in the day with a cheery voice to see how things are going. As hard as it is, just try to avoid engaging in the mean game.

Get counseling for yourself to help you handle or not handle depending on what route you take, your mother. It will do no good to have your mother go with you to counseling because they don’t think there is anything wrong with them. My mother thinks there is nothing wrong. Everyone else is the problem. You can’t help someone who doesn’t want to be helped. Read it again “YOU CANT HELP SOMEONE WHO DOESNT WANT TO BE HELPED!

I tried to get my mom to go - she absolutely refused - there is nothing wrong with her, it is everyone else.

30 years ago my parents started marriage counseling before their eventual divorce. She quit because the therapist did not agree with her that it was all dad's fault.

He quit because the therapist would not agree that it was all my mom's fault.

i had two parents that were challenging to deal with -

Lealonnie,
Great advice!! I hadn't thought of counseling as a training ground, but I can totally see it!!
So if I happen to be sick or have back pain or any type of stress, YES Mom has been thru it or is going thru it and it was/is 10 times worse.
When I was diagnosed with colon cancer a month ago, she couldn't top that so she posted on Facebook that I have cancer and WE'RE gonna get thru this!!
She was so busy looking for sympathy that she didn't bother asking me if I had spoken to all of my other family members(I hadn't)or even permission to plaster MY personal business for all to see!! Her actions caused me a huge mess with other family members! Ugh!!!

If you feel counseling would help you live with your emotions and feelings, then go for it. It can't hurt and you can learn a lot. And if this woman is so narcisstic, then why on earth are you even talking or dealing with her. She is not going to stop so your only option is tell her off and do not go near her until she behaves. End of statement. Do NOT allow anyone to make you unhappy.

Yes, lealonnie!! My mother does the same thing. She is nice to me when I am sick. It also goes the other way with her too. She is a hypochondriac also. So if I get sick, she is going to get sick and her symptoms will be way worse than mine!!! I usually don't tell her when anyone is sick because then all of a sudden SHE is sick!! But now that you mention it, if i tell her that I have a bad cold and sore throat her voice does change and she acts like she feels bad for me.

I had to put my mom in respite care 5 hears ago after hip replacement because I had a long planned trip to go on. I waited on her hand and foot for 3 weeks in my home followed her through 2 surgeries and 8 weeks of rehab. She still brings it up to this day that I dropped her off like a stray dog.

My suggestion- Get counseling for yourself. My counselor told me it’s too late for counseling for my mom (84).