How to deal with age discrimination in the hospital?

RQ (((((hugs))))))))!!!

Wow, you are an amazing advocate for your father. I'm so glad he has you!

I think the first hospital sounds incompetent at best.

Right now, you are dealing with medical folks who don't know your father. Your job, (and you are doing a great job of it) is to make sure they know your dad and give him the consideration he needs.

It seems that there are a lot of comorbidties going on right now and that makes treating the individual problems more difficult.

I am hoping for a good outcome for your dad's surgery.

Wow! You and father have been through way too much already, and a lot of it sounds like it has been uncalled for. Thank God you were there to calm him and explain to him what's been going on.

It's heartbreaking to hear of someone his age being treated so poorly, but sadly I'm sure it goes on more than we know. I would suggest keeping record of everything that he's been through, and if need be, you might want to talk to a lawyer when it's all said and done.

I know that when my husband was in the hospital over the years, I had to stay on them all the time, because my husband had had a massive stroke years ago, and his speech was very impaired, and they didn't want to take the time to try and figure out what he wanted or was trying to say. Even when my husband was under Hospices care for 22 months, I had to stay on them all the time as well, to make sure my husband was receiving the care he needed and deserved. I think in their case they thought, well he's going to die anyway, so why bother with this or that. My husband was only 72 when he died almost 6 weeks ago now.

I'm glad your father has you in his corner. You are now his advocate, so stay strong and make sure he gets the care he needs and deserves. Praying his surgery on Tuesday goes well.

He is perhaps "alive" but with the help of heroic and artificial measures. It is unlikely he would be alive without their assistance. Has the medical community suggested to you that he is in heart failure? The fact you describe fluid in is lungs may indicate/probably indicates left heart failure, and in the peripheral extremities, arms, legs, hands, indicates right heart failure. That means his heart pump is failing.
Whether we are 8 years old or 88 years old we cannot live without a functioning heart pump.
Whether we are 8 years old or 88 years old we cannot live without functioning lungs.
The next major system that goes down will almost certainly be the kidneys.
You say "I think he would rather die trying". Actually ventilators and resuscitation are torture, so I will ask you to be certain, not the "think". Has your father told you he wants all measures including CPR which would serve only to shatter the bones of his chest, and ventilation, which keeps him a prisoner who cannot even express the pain coursing through his shattered body?
Be certain you are not fighting to keep your beloved elder with you, rather than bowing to the grace that comes to us all when we pass from a peaceful, loved and long existence into what awaits every living thing.
It is unlikely that jaw surgery will be done while intubation is needed, and intubation with a fractured jaw? I quite honestly cannot even imagine the pain. I hope you dad is being kept well sedated, because at present he cannot contribute to discussion of his pain level.
I am sorry for your pain. I tell you these things as someone who spent her life as a nurse.

If you are confident that your father would choose to take the risk and have the surgery, I salute you for being his advocate in this and I wish him the very best. May he survive and recover well.

Should this not go according to plan, talk things through with someone you trust who can also explain the situation to you in detail.

Your father was on blood thinners, and had a nasty fall. I am glad that he and your mother (?) have enjoyed a good life for so many decades together, but I don't think it can have been quite true that he had no health problems before the fall.

The first hospital seemed quite negligent. I feel so bad for your dad. My mother is pretty deaf without her hearing aids. Her hearing aides were sent out to be repaired. When she got her hearing aids back she was fine. I would go along with your dads wishes. My mother still wants all treatment for UTI's and I told her as long as it is treatable and is effective she can continue with the treatments. In my opinion and belief your dad is in the hands of God and when it is his time to pass he will regardless of treatments or not. I am told you will know when it is time to just let your loved ones be at peace as I would hope I would do with my mother. This must be so difficult for all involved especially your dad. I am hoping your dad recovers well from the surgery and both of you are at peace with what ever decision you make. Prayers sent to both of you.

Good insights and advice from those who've already posted.     I'm thinking there are a few other issues here:

1.    Is this hospital a for profit, or nonprofit?   I just searched and found some hospitals in the Centerport, NY area, including Mt. Sinai Hospital.   If your father is experiencing this kind of treatment at a Sinai hospital, I'd be very surprised.

2.   Hospital size, beds, staff, etc. all can factor into a plan of care, but I'm sure no one is going to address this very frankly with you.     And as you probably know, there's an upsurge of new COVID 19 cases.  Those ICU beds may in the opinion of the staff be needed for COVID patients (including younger ones, whether or not they've been practicing safe distance and masking methods.)

3.   Beds may be scarce; I think triaging comes into play in your father's situation, just as it does in (military) field hospitals.    Sometimes the lead doctors make the dominant decisions.  


What you can do:  

A.   Continue your path of inquiry and representation for your father, but step it up by taking notes, extensive notes, and asking questions.   I did that, extensively as well, and eventually the good medical people understood my position and why I did it, as when I returned, I often had more questions (if my medical friends couldn't answer them first) and proposed options to discuss.

But I could tell some of the nurses were concerned, as I overheard one telling another, in a worried sort of tone:  "she's taking NOTES!"    Next time I saw one, or it might have been a doctor, I said that I take extensive notes so I can go home and research the issues, returning with a better understanding of the issues so I wouldn't have to ask them to explain.

B.    This raises your participation level enough that concern might develop as to their apparent short term negative assessment.     And it also puts you more in a position of participating as opposed to just having accept or question.

C.    Document and question the delays; a hospital that doesn't do surgeries on the weekend sounds suspicious to me, but then I'm not a medical practitioner.   And I'm used to large chain hospitals, some of which are religiously owned, others were nonprofits.    

That changed when business (?) people acquired the hospitals; actually, the whole mission changed then.  Staff were laid off, remaining staff may have felt overworked and sloughed off, care declined, and who knows how many patients  may have experienced something like you have?

(I am relieved thought that they've trached him; the ENT specialist for my father's long hospitalization told me that normally they won't keep a patient on a ventilator for more than a week b/c of potential repercussions, and that was the reason for traching Dad. )

D.   Another aspect about which you might inquire is the presence of long term care hospitals, such as Select Specialty.   That is where Dad spent a few months b/c he was unable to  speak when he was initially trached, unless the speech pathologist (or therapist - I don't remember which) was present and made some adjustments (I never figured out what those were, but it had something to do with positioning of an access in the trach tube).    He went through extensive speech therapy before he could eat and  speak again.  

E.  I also made up charts by which Dad could point to express his needs.   He couldn't drink or eat, but he need to have stims to moisten his lips.   That was on his chart, as well situations like being too cold, too warm, wondering when I would be there, etc. 

Being incommunicado is a tremendously negative experience, so one of the foci was how to create a situation by which he could communicate w/o speaking.   So I brought in a spiral bound notebook, tied a pen to it, and left it so he could also write out questions when I wasn't there.

RQ, I think you're a strong, dedicated and caring person, and I hope my experiences can offer insights to help you and your father.

Ran out of space..... I do think there is some age discrimination taking place, but it  could also involve being overworked, spread thin, and exhausted from care for patients with COVID 19.   Still, I think age is the primary factor here.

I think you have the courage to ask, very sweetly, if the "care plan" is how a much younger patient would be "cared for."    Be aware that you'll put someone on the spot; do it with a doctor as opposed to a nurse.    It wouldn't hurt to have a friend or relative as witness. (I did.)

During one of my father's last hospitalizations, a hospitalist, not an independent doctor, was assigned his case, along with a few newbie residents who had what I consider a typical younger person's attitude toward older people.   

One was a bimbo who kept telling Dad that he'd "had a good life" and it was time to accept that it was at an end, and he should agree to allowing them not to provide typical care if he segued into a pre-death mode.    I was offended that this baby doctor had the audacity to "counsel" someone who lived through the Great Depression, WWII, and more.  

So when she wouldn't shut up, I told that I thought she was overstepping her bounds and had no significant experiential basis for anything she was saying, except personal opinions.  I added that I planned to ask for an independent doctor to replace the hospitalist team and didn't expect her to be involved in any further "care" for my father.   She got the message and scurried out of his room.

And that's what I did.   I wouldn't hesitate to fire another doctor if I had to.

May God guide the surgeons hands and all the staff involved with his surgery and pre and post-op care.

Can your dad not tell you what he wants? You say he is responding, have you asked him? I would do that first and then reassure him that you will fight tooth and nail for his wishes to be fulfilled.

Great big warm hug! You are an awesome advocate for your dad.

Put a BIG sign above his bed saying DEAF. This is not age discrimination, this is a Disabilities discrimination.

I go thru this every time my 73 yr old DH is in a hospital. The info does not seem to get from one shift to the other. Or even nurse to nurse aide to aide. You need to talk to the doctors and the DON. Say it over and over. HE IS DEAF. HE CANNOT HEAR YOU WHEN U SPEAK. TAKE THE MASK DOWN, HE CAN READ LIPS!!!! I have told one of the nurses in a doctors office to put a piece of paper in my husbands folder and make it the first thing the doctor sees "THIS PATIENT IS DEAF". Because he was always looking down and my DH couldn't see his mouth.

My DH does hear a little with a hearing aide used in his right ear. But you need to be on his right side because he is completely deaf on the left. So where do the doctor or nurse stand. I go with my husband so I keep telling them to switch sides.

It really is a shame that our Deaf need to go thru this. And I am serious about the sign. Put "Deaf, please remove mask to talk, can read lips" Seems extreme I know. But staff is not informed even when in his record.

My DH has problems all the time. These professionals and seem to be out there where deafness is involved. No, not every deaf person signs. Not every deaf person can read lips. And to be told a person is deaf and to try and talk to them thru a mask! Where is the common sense.

Hi JoAnn, I was talking specifically about my moms complicated urinary tract infections. I agree sepsis and death can happen if not treated . My mother had many UTI's over the last 10-15 years and the only antibiotics that help her now is IV antibiotics which is limited due to resistance. Her doctors told me she will run out of options eventually. I absolutely agree with you about treatment but what does one do when there are no options left. I have to be realistic . She was in the hospital last month and had 14 days of home IV antibiotics. Now still a bad infection but symptoms are less. Another round of IV antibiotics for 14 days three times a day. She also has bladder washes every two to four weeks. Doctors in the ER always ask me if I want them treated still. I always do but feel bad putting my mom through it all, pic lines, lab draws. I feel so sad for her but I don not want her to become septic. When there are no options left I will have to make the decision in the best interest of my mom. It will be a difficult decision but it is about her not me. My head spins sometimes with all of this. I wish they would find a cure once and for all. I feel bad for anyone suffering with complicated UTI's or simple ones for that matter. She had been seen by the very best hospitals and doctors. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I would not want anyone to misunderstand my post about not getting treatment. It is most important to get treated asap. I am glad I had a chance to clarify my comment..

Thanks to all of you for caring enough to respond - I didn’t expect it.
When I got to the hospital yesterday my dad was sitting upright and very awake. His respirator was turned off and he was breathing on his own. He saw me and was trying to talk. I had a note pad with me and wrote to him that he’s in the hospital that went ok then I wrote that he can’t talk yet and he got upset and started to breath too fast and set off all the alarms- respirator was turned on again. I calmed him and went about my daily routine of making him as comfortable as possible. Every day I have to cover him. The room is too cold for me and I have jacket on. The blankets are folded wrong leaving his feet and his shoulders uncovered. He feels cold more than a younger person he turns the heat up in the summer!! The blankets are sitting there but they never put them on him. He has no fever or any other reason to keep this room so cold or to not cover him. His hands were like ice. The nurse gave me heat packs to put by his hands but they were too hot. I turn on the TV so he has something to look at other than the ceiling- he watches it. I move his bed to sit him up when he’s coughing and to lie him back when he’s trying to sleep. I sit next to him and hold his hand like my mother would. He knows I’m there when he opens his eyes. It comforts him. He’s in a private room. Yesterday the nurse came in and told me I’d have to leave because of the visiting rules. Visiting hours are 12-8. 2 people a day 2 hours each. I’m the only one visiting right now and all I do is sit there with him. When I’m not there what happens - tv goes off - blankets get changed and not put back - so for 22 hours a day he’s tortured- he’s at their mercy and can’t complain.
I believe that most people go into the medical field to help people but after a while it just becomes a job and empathy goes out the window. They don’t care. They go through motions of doing tests emptying urine changing intravenous bags when they ring. Keeping them comfortable is not a factor. He can’t call for pain meds. You have to see it in his eyes. But you have to be there to see it. They just see an old man in a bed.
Surgery is still on - they are aggressively trying to get him breathing on his own.
Heart failure has not been mentioned-
I would like to review a DNR -
Thank you all for responding- It’s comforting for me at this time when I have to comfort and be strong for my mother an siblings

RW, this is such good news!      Your father has made such progress since I last read this thread.

Breathing on his own is a significant milestone; it can avoid the complications of long term intubation.  

It's really unfortunate that the staff aren't providing up to par care.  I suspect there have been some layoffs, each nurse and CNA are handling more patients than before, and they're not "happy campers."   And the patients suffer b/c of decisions made at some remote higher administration level, also where the bean counters reside.

At this point, a few things can be tried:

1.  Bribery:  bring up fresh bagels, donuts, even a pizza.   Add a thank you card with the food package (even if it's not warranted).   The fact that YOU took time to address their situation can soften their attitude toward your father.

2.   Document, and contact the hospital administrator with suggestion, concerns (but don't say complaints).   Ask if there's a way you can help.   There probably isn't other than what you're already doing, but I suspect the Admin will remember and share the fact that you're concerned about the staff.  

Good luck, best wishes, and please let us know how the surgery proceeds.   I'll be following your thread and will be anxious to hear more good news.

RQ, I spent my life as a nurse, so you will have a hard time convincing me ever that "they don't care; they only see an old man sitting in the bed". I WILL tell you that I see, I witness now, and I am told by young RNs that the mechanization of everything has robbed them of seeing their patients in the human way we used to, that their eyes are always on the machinery and have had patients say to them "Hey! There's a person here!" It is interesting for discussion. I still remember patients BY NAME with tremendous love, and their families as well. Even Stella, who used to take whacks at me with her cane. I wish you the best staff ever created.
I will tell you also that NO ONE can care as much as you can. If family is able to be there, once out of an intensive care situation, ask for cot or easy chair/bed and try to spell one another.
What fabulous news to hear of this improvement. Whatever the ultimate outcome, and I know that YOU know the bad position Dad is in here overall, YOU have been the most wonderful thing in the world for your Dad. There is nothing like the advocacy of strong family. So know that while staff may at times look at you with great consternation, they ALSO know that YOU are who they would want in their own corner.
Thanks for updating us. So often people don't return to say a thing, and we appreciate it. Holding you and your family and esp. your Dad in our hearts.

Alva, your observations on nursing brought to mind what my niece has shared with me.  Sometimes nurses are treated poorly, sometimes abusively, but they still have to perform their duties, and chart those actions.

Your comment on mechanization is interesting, and could reflect a growing change from interaction with patients which could be detrimental to both sides.

I think the friction can also arise when hospitals are reconfigured from nonprofit to for profit ones.    A lot of employer/employee dynamics are affected by these changes, and the nurses often are the ones to feel the negative impact of greed.

That standard of care unfortunately doesn't apply to a lot of professions, politicians most prominently, although I'm not sure any standards at all exist for some of them.

As long as your dad is actively supporting his desires through his communications with you, I can’t imagine why you’d consider do anything on his behalf other than what you’re doing now.

I can’t imagine this, but is there any possibility that there isn’t anyone employed by the hospital who can support his needs for assisted hearing?

My former HS band director passed on during a surgery that he DEMANDED be done, at 95. Those of us who knew him were fully aware that if it hadn’t been done, he’d have looked for another place to do it.

One man of 88 may be totally different from another. Please continue to proceed on his behalf to support whatever HE thinks are best FOR HIM.

RQ, I will be thinking about your dad today. Hope the surgery goes well!

Prayers for your precious dad.

Prayers for you as well.

This just might be a case of a "domino effect" or a "cascade of events"
One decision leads to another that leads to another. If a different decision were made the first time the outcome might have been different. You will NEVER know.
I made the decision early on when caring for my Husband that when I had to make a decision, if I made a decision given the information I had and the choices I had with the potential outcomes and I made a decision that was in his best interest I would not question it. Now if more information came to light later that would have caused me to make a different choice I could not beat myself up over it.
Delays are often not predictable, many in the medical profession will tell you not to schedule a surgery around a weekend or a holiday. Emergencies are one thing but if your dad was stable it was not an emergency.
Discontinuing blood thinners helped stop the bleeding that he had BUT as a result there were clots, they should have anticipated that.
He sounds very determined and I wish you and him all the best.

I just read your post from the 25th. It sounds like he did well.
Hugs to you and your dad.

It may be after the fact, but if you can get him moved to a Trauma I center then do it. And you need to be prepared to raise h*ll to get it done. I haven't figured the whole delay game out, but I will always believe it involves a money trail.

Just went through this 'hold him in a hospital that couldn't treat the problem thing' with a sibling. The hospital did not have a nephrologist on staff, nor the 24/7 dialysis he needed. And a year before that, another relative held in exact same hospital for exact number of days before moving to bigger hospital who could treat the problem. Requests made each and every day to get them moved got nothing but replies of how they were working on getting transport out of there. Keep in mind there is a helicopter pad outside the hospital and EMS service within spitting distance. Sibling was too far gone at the age of 60 and permanent nerve damage results for the other relative. I will never understand why professionals cannot admit when a problem is over their head in situations like this. You can bet their own relatives would have been passed on immediately to another doctor who specialized in the problem.

Sorry you are having this experience. Older bodies do respond as well as younger bodies: older liver and kidneys that may not process and clear medications as well as they used to, older eyes and ears that don't function as well (and younger people who forget this), and more delicate balance to keep everything working without the added stress of injury and needed surgical repair. Thank God you are advocating for him.

I can explain some of the hesitancy to operate right away: blood chemistry and blood clotting must be good before operating (they had to wait for his blood thinners to wear off). He lost a lot of blood and required transfusions - need to make sure he can keep from bleeding out again... and definitely not on an operating table. He was having problems with micro blood clots and edema in his extremities - not good when one receives a lot of fluids in the OR. The there are the fractures themselves which may indicate osteoporosis. If he has some osteoporosis, he may never totally heal in the areas that broke even with wonderful surgical procedures. It can seem frustrating to "wait" but it appears he wasn't a good surgical candidate when he was admitted.

Imho, the fact of the matter through all these decisions, albeit wrong or not so much, is that your dad rallied and that's a very good thing. Prayers sent.

I'm sorry you are going through that with your dad, but falling is one of those risks with aging. The more meds they are on, the higher the risk. if he's been bedridden for 2 weeks chances are he will never walk again. He is also high, HIGH risk of developing blood clots due to immobility and he obviously needed the "thinners" for that reason in the first place. Surgery itself predisposes to blood clots.

I do not wish to sound blunt, but if you have not done so already, it sounds like you may need to start doing some funeral planning. It's much, much worse to do it after they die and the funeral homes will gouge you out of your grief. I can only suggest making this a priority if this was not done already. But like any suggestion you can take it or leave it.

If he is on a ventilator, his hands are tied to the bed and feeding tube in his mouth down to his stomach, which represents a lot of discomfort so he is kept sedated which means his muscles are atrophying. He can still catch pneumonia. You may also want to give thought about his code status. His doctor should have talked to you about that. DNR does NOT mean "do not treat" -- it simply means not to shock him or do chest compressions. My mom was DNR but I sure did a lot of treatment for her. I made them do everything but if her heart stopped let her go. That is a decision you and your family need to talk about.

RQ, any update? (((((((HUGS)))))

RQ1234 after reading your ordeal I realize how lucky we were that my husband (92) passed quickly one year ago this week. We also were married a long time 72 years. Unbelievable what they are putting this poor guy through. And what about his wife and children? I am almost 92 I can't imagine what it must be like. God bless you I hope he can home and live out his years in peace.

Keep in mind that, unless you are very wealthy, US medical care is not the best in the world. Don't take my word for it - do some research and look into outcomes/per money spent. An eye-opener. And I think Medical staff work pretty hadr, considering what they are up against. Look at what the "boots on the ground" are paid.