I feel like we are negotiating with a "terrorist". Is there something we are missing?

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I feel like we are negotiating with a "terrorist". Is there something we are missing?

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Long backstory short - FIL was raised by a mother and grandmother who treated him as if he were the second coming. He is a raging narcissist. He has some age related cognitive decline but at this point it seems more just some really poor decision making. He treats women as if we were put on Earth to see to his needs and nothing more.
Lately, we have needed him to "help us" by making some good decisions around the care and maintenance of his home. Removing some old things that he no longer needs that are causing damage to the house (by this I mean giving us permission to get rid of them for him) or blocking exits. To be honest we could do it and he would never know but it is HIS house and we were trying to keep him involved. SIL, who lives there, tried to have a rational conversation with him. He dug in. Refused to discuss it. We needed to move these things soon. BIL who lives there, tried to have a rational conversation with him. He refused. My DH, his son, tried to have a rational conversation with him. He refused. I tried to have rational conversation with him...you get the picture.
So I tried one last tactic - and I swear to you all I absolutely hate this tactic - but it is the ONLY one that works and I don't know why. I talk to him like a child, I tell him he doesn't have a choice and that it is going. That his house is in disrepair, that is it dangerous and that his home owner's would cancel on him if they did an inspection, that the fire department would report him for blocking an exit as it illegal....yadda yadda yadda. All in a stern voice. Suddenly he is on board and letting us get rid of stuff.
Then behind my back he is telling my husband that he needs to "Get his woman in line."
I hate this! Why won't he just work with us when we try to talk to him adult to adult? Is there something we are missing? Is there more cognitive decline that we are missing? Why does he respond to me treating him like a child but not us treating him like an adult? I don't want to treat him like that. I leave with a headache every time I have to have a confrontation like that. It isn't fair to him or me that I have to resort to that. AND I'm the only one he will listen to!! We have even tried that approach with the other three and nothing. His sister says he is afraid I will take my husband and go because we don't have to be there and she believes he is intimidated because he has never had to deal with anyone that would tell him he isn't getting his way before.
I just don't know if this is how we are going to have to do things from now on to get anything accomplished. Is this our lives from now on? Is there really no discussing things with him like an adult anymore?

Cognitive Decline Family Caregiver Narcissism

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You cannot 'reason' with - likely both - a narcissistic personality (disorder) nor someone with dementia. Both are combustable.

* You need to learn that all you can control is YOUR REACTION, not his.
- And how you take care of yourself.
- This is learned behavior. Catch yourself immediately when he does or says something that will / does set you off. S-T-O-P and be aware of how you feel and how you want to re-center yourself. Then figure out how, i.e., walk away, think of something pleasant, say "yes, I hear you" and continue doing what you need to do.

* You need to understand, emotionally and psychologically that there is just so much you can do if you need his cooperation and/or legal authorization, if you do not get it.

* Do not engage with him unless useful - to meet your needs (for him).
* Walk away. Being narcissistic, he won't like that.
* Hold your ground. Do not allow him to continue to drive (you nuts). Dealing with this personality is certainly not easy. Only you can change, he cannot "much" - holding your ground, not reacting to him (which he likes), not arguing (which he wants to do cause 'he's right, of course...' may register in his brain "this ain't working anymore.
- He will NOT change until you do.
Gena aka Touch Matters

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Yes, I think "combustible" is an appropriate description--sort of along the lines of "going 'ballistic' "!

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Just my short take. His cognition may have declined more and is compounded by his narcissism. There is no reasoning with someone whose mind is going down the rabbit hole by any form of dementia. Also bad decision making is a sign his dementia is worsening.

Your number 1 goal is now keeping him as safe as you can which is going to be a rollercoaster ride for all of you.

So sorry you all are facing this.

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well being that maybe that is how he was talked to all his life, he doesn't know any better and never had any true adult conversations. Add to that he is starting to have memory decline and it doubles. I would hope that things are already in place as far as POA's, etc, otherwise you will have a bigger battle on your hands. I really don't know the answer other than, maybe you just treat him like a child and tell him straight up that stuff has to go or YOU go. I sure wish you luck.

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I'm wondering why your husband isn't the one talking to him and explaining things.

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"My DH, his son, tried to have a rational conversation with him."

Also, from the sounds of it, DH and SIL were likely browbeaten growing up and kowtowed to this man. Clearly SIL still hasn't managed to stand up to him, but DH is learning!

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I feel his cognitive decline is worse than you are aware of. Has he been to his doctor lately? Has anyone discussed the issued you are seeing with his doctor? There are medications which can slow the progression, however, it won't necessarily help if his decline is further along than suspected. You are correct it is his house, sometimes the best thing you can do is to "Let it Go". When your own health is being destroyed while trying to help someone else you need to step back. You could try getting APS involved as they do offer supportive services in some states. You can suggest to APS he is a danger to himself. Not all APS departments will help, but if you get a good intake person, they may come out. Does anyone have a POA for his medical? Depending on how it is written. You maybe able to get him tested with a geriatric psychologist or a neuropsychologist. I wish you the best, remember, your health comes first.

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Prayers sent.

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If FIL is at the point where he would not know if you discarded things, he has more that mild cognitive issues. You might want to find yourself a CARETAKERS meeting ... He could be slipping into dementia. My road started 4 years ago when my husband was diagnosed with the MCI . This is 4 years later and he was just retested. We are waiting for the results. I already know where he is headed. I started going to my CARETAKERS meeting a few years ago, not because of him but because of how I hated the way I reacted to him . There is so much to learn . His brain is broken and he lives in his own reality . I treat him better now. No amount of brow beating will get through . I can talk my head off and loose my temper but it makes no difference. It makes me crazy and gives me a head ache. Now I think of the huge amount of energy I spend and know he is not able to do anything different than what he does. Your FIL my be in a similar place. Start now to get legal thing in order. Someone needs to know what his finances are and get a durable POA in place. I was recently been told by a close friend to get my Big Girl Panties on , because it does not get better, it only gets worse. The meetings have helped a lot. There are days we can even laugh together. I hope this helps .

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I would ask his doctor about aricept.

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I don't have any helpful answers but I just wanted to say you have my empathy and sympathy. I can so relate to your frustration. My father was full spectrum Cluster B personality disordered. He had both NPD and ASPD with definite sociopathic tendencies. He was a nasty, foul tempered, selfish human being his whole life and lived to age 96, but he got worse the older he got and we couldn't even blame dementia. After my mother passed, I had to deal with him for another 17 months. That was over a year ago and I'm STILL recovering from the nightmare/insanity. It got so bad, I had to go No Contact about a month before the Covid-19 outbreak. I had been stuck in the F.O.G. for years, never able to stand up to him. I just got to the point where I refused to put up with all the toxicity and couldn't stand to be in the same room with him. My health got so bad from the stress I thought I was going to die before he did.
Try to do whatever it takes to be free of your FIL, as it will only get worse.
Hugs and best of luck!

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You're not going to change him, and don't want to bargain with him. Your words: "To be honest we could do it and he would never know but it is HIS house and we were trying to keep him involved". If this is truly the case, just do what needs to be done while he is in another part of the house and be done with it.

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Two things after I read your description. Get him evaluated by a qualified health care professional; home visit if he refuses to go in. Your Area Agency on Aging can help you find the right resources for that. Second, read up on Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It’s an eye opener. The books we read were “Stop Walking On Eggshells” and “Stop Caretaking the Borderline and Narcissistic Personality.” (What is meant in the second book’s title is how to stop kowtowing, if you will, as someone will have to provide caregiving - not caretaking - at this stage of his life, whether it’s in the home, or in AL.) The books give excellent tools that you may be able to use now, or in the future with disordered personalities - you probably know more folks like that than you think. We just recently discovered that a first degree relative has Narcissistic Personality Disorder as a diagnosis, and it explains so much, which helps us with healthier approaches to said individual. If anything, the books and other similar resources give you tools to understand so you don’t go bonkers. I suspect, as others have said, that speaking to him as a child is indeed reminiscent of his mom and grandmother, which is why it works - despite his commentary to your husband. Getting him evaluated is key, though. My best to you. This is a tough row to hoe.

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OMG this is so my FiL. My MiL passed away unexpectedly and suddenly. She managed him . Now the full brunt is on one of 3 sons. One son, my DH is dealing with Parkinson's but we help as much as we can since we live the closest. and the other son lives out of state. The son who is doing the bulk of the work lives about 75 miles away. We have come to realize that the affairs are anything but in order and FiL not only insists they are ( knowing they aren't) but refuses any assistance in getting things in order and simplifying things so that they are manageable. So we have a 96 year old narcissist with dementia who refuses any assistance with his business and argues about everything. In the long run I think if you found a strategy that works and gets the needed compliance go with it. You have my best wishes

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My mothers decision making was the first thing to go when she began her cognitive decline. She purposefully walked on ice downhill on a driveway to “see how slippery” it was. She waited for my brother to leave the house and then dragged heavy boxes up and down basement stairs alone…a woman who could barely walk without falling over…..she showered the minute we left the house yet fainted in there before and had 911 called....she hoarded food in her bedroom…hoarded empty bags…and over bought so much household stock..she had forgotten she already bought it…...long story made short she lives in assisted living now and still sneaks at 330am to shower despite us paying for help…Sadly this will get worse..Someone will need POA and medical control…..I took it over the minute she began poor decision making..I just do whats needed…little talk of why with her....its a downhill slide…so sorry! My moms 87..

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You describe FIL and I see my 87 year old husband who suffers from dementia, aphasia and loss of hearing. He was always in charge of his life and usually called the shots. His way or the highway so to speak. In any case I will only tell you that when he became intolerable to manage he was placed in a memory care for 5 months. It was the hardest time of my life to be without him, but it was the best thing that ever happened. He was thoroughly evaluated, placed on medications that definitely changed his mood and behavior. He is now back home with me and is very easy to manage. He’s like a different person. I can only highly recommend that you have FIL thoroughly evaluated by a neurologist and placed on the appropriate medications that could help immensely. I will also mention that having my husband in the memory care made it much easier on me because they were constantly working on the proper medications and dosages until they got it right and he became calm and well adjusted.

You’re going through a most difficult time in FIL’s life and if you can do anything to ease his burden, while not destroying your life would be most advantageous for all involved. It’s very possible that he is depressed, anxious and confused which only adds to the agony of watching his life slip away in slow motion and not knowing why.

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Yes, that is the way you "are going to have to do things from now on to get anything accomplished'. You either accept that - and learn to not care what he says about you afterward - or step away. Trying to reason with him or expecting a narcissist in cognitive decline to be reasonable will only continue to frustrate you.

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Is there a POA for his health and finances? If not, it should be your priority, otherwise your wasting your time.

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Good point.

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Why does it even matter why he responds to the requests you make and how you make them? If it gets the job done that’s all that matters. Things could be a lot worse.

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Doing it on a "what the eye doesn't see the heart doesn't grieve over" basis is all very well - but who's paying? His house, his asset, his repair costs.

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If you can do just the bare essential work without him saying anything & it’s for fire & health safety then just do it. Don’t radically change things since you’re right, it is his home & he should be on board for that. If it’s just stuff that’s bugging you because like you said, it’s old, then leave it. He’s not agreeing because he doesn’t want it done. All elderly people deserve respect & dignity. You can clear it out when he doesn’t live there anymore.

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Your post contained the answer: "To be honest we could do it and he would never know..." At some point they become incapable of making rational decisions. Why "involve" him if his response is always the same? Just get it done.

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I don't think it has anything to do with your approach of talking to him like a child, I think it was all the threats regarding the Home Owners and the Fire Dept.

Next time, just tell him nicely the first time the same thing.

You can even add the Health Dept and Senior Dept.

But, please keep in mind it is his house and he shouldn't have to get rid of anything unless it really is a concern for Health or Safety. Not because you or anyone else want it cleaned up.

They'll be plenty of time to get rid of his stuff, after he's gone.

You don't need to try teaching an old dog new tricks.

As long as he shows you respect, he can't help how he feels or thinks because that's how he grew up.

But, you show him respect and let him know you expect it back and everything will be fine.

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Go with what works. It’s hard and draining on you to reach that point of confrontation. You have to be careful to decompress and find a solid, no nonsense tone. In my family, there are people who won’t stop as long as they figure there is a possibility that you will cave and they will “win” even if it is actually a “loss” for them. He was surprised and temporarily left down his strategy of defiance, you might have to go a couple of more rounds.

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It is your new life, on most days, or on so many of your days that it feels oppressive. My DH snaps at me no matter how I speak to him, so it’s mainly my own emotions which I must guard, by remembering he is not the spouse I’ve been married to for 30+ years.
At least, with a parent figure rather than a partner in that circumstance, you’re not in a position of grieving how your beloved peer’s cognitive/emotional decline is affecting them and you.
Hugs! Take a measure of empowerment for yourself, to weather this caregiving storm.

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EducBr--I wonder if this is generally true, or you are one of a few who have experienced this. If the former, then it may be helpful to a lot of people.

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I have no perfect answers for sure. But it is the only way I can talk to my mother. She now has advanced dementia. And there will never be talking to her like a reasonable adult anymore. She will rage and carry on and curse at me. I have to remain calm and just speak firmly that I won’t support her behavior or her demands. I say “this is the plan and that’s the way it is.” Or something like that. Much like you have had to. She has been making poor decisions all along for many years and doesn’t recognize her decline or dementia. She throws tantrums like a child and will lie and manipulate to try and get what she wants. I believe she has had dementia for many years but her abusive and narcissistic personality made it hard to see.

If it’s any help at all, I was coached by a person who has experience in managing these behaviors to do just what you are doing. Just speak clearly and firmly and walk away when needed. Don’t try to reason or explain or appease. I don’t raise my voice, but I am serious and I don’t show emotion. I can say to not take it personally but it’s hard not to sometimes. Deep down your FIL knows you won’t take any guff and that it is likely you could cut him off. He knows he needs help and is clinging to whatever control he still thinks he has. For him that’s being verbally abusive. I’m sorry you have to go through this!

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I think you answered you own question - he was brought up being given everything by mother and grandmother, which means they were the ones who could take it away. Hence you are the one to be listened to but also to be "put in line". He has grown up and gone through life knowing how to manipulate people and how to get what he wants, but also how to make sure he keeps on the right side of people if it serves his aims.
So treat him like a child and he responds in case you stop giving him things he wants, but like a child behind your back he rebels and talks about you because he thinks having things his way is his right.
I guess its a bit like Pascal's wager - do what DIL says just in case I can't continue to get my own way.
I doubt you will change him, but a discussion between your generation of the family that agrees that things will get done by treating him as a child and that's just the way it is - do it and move on - could take the strain off all of you. Its a case of finding what works and using it same as with a child, he is just a child that was spoilt, never grew up, and is likely unfortunately to suffer mental decline until more and more like a child in future. If the family can agree on a plan of action you will all feel less stressed and more supported by each other going forward.

Just how I read it - having a narcissistic mother.

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Reading this reminded me of how my maternal grandmother used to tell my grandfather "your mother spoiled you and it's never been taken out of you!" However, my knowing absolutely nothing about his mother makes it impossible for me to agree or disagree, although at times he could be a bit demanding.

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OK I am getting a picture, correct me if wrong!

SIL & BIL got in a sticky spot a while back & FIL helped them out. FIL saw it more 'transaction' than gift.. The King grants this generosity = enslaved into the King's service - forever. Now they are stuck fast.

They may need to do a 'Harry & Megan' & plan their escape & independence despite the hardships it will bring. That's up to them of course.

You seem to get along well with them - I'd make THAT relationship the one to preserve & protect. (They'll be still around in 5, 10 years).

Ensure they get you. Eg if you stepped back from helping FIL & this increased their workload would they understand?

If you work with them on a master plan, the tough love approach could work.

The biggest barrier will be SIL. That F.O.G. (fear obligation guilt). She will need to examine her thoughts. Does FIL helping her before match what he is expecting now? Has the emotional/financial debt been cleared in her mind?

One last thought.. when I ran up a credit card in my stupid youth. My Folks did not pay the bill but showed me how to manage it myself. Could SIL take that approach with FIL now? I won't DO all your work, but I will show you how to hire help?

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Decision-making gets harder for adults as they age, cognitive decline or not. The reason why it probably worked when you talked to him like a kid is because you didn't overwhelm him with details and overcomplicate it.

Talking to him in baby talk is disrespectful -- simplifying what you're trying to convey is not.

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Perhaps your method of talking to him is the same one used by his family female matriarchs. Talked to him like a kid. This is how we're going to do it. Period. As for going behind your back and telling your husband to get you in line is rather funny. Hubby needs a quick response to that for him - been trying for years, but she takes after her father!!! -- Let his words about that roll off your back. No harm, no foul. What you said worked, so go with it.

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Excellent response to father!

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IF you feel he can either live on his own or will move to a facility if no one is there to care for him, then I would do what it takes to get the house "in order", whether you all just do it without his input or you give him the stern lecture. Whatever works. Yes, it stinks to have to be the "meanie", but if it works, so be it! Who cares what he says behind your back? You already know how he feels about women, so it's to be expected, even if you weren't being the Grinch. The good news is your husband has your back and stood up to him. Good for him!

You indicated that BIL/SIL moved in 5 years ago, more out of necessity for them than for dear old dad. What is their situation now? Can they afford to find a place of their own? If so, then they should work on finding a place and make plans to move out. Meanwhile, if you all work well together as a team, get dad's place cleaned up and situated. Once they move out, then see how it goes. If he can't fend for himself, then someone will need to step in and take over. This may require guardianship. Based on another person's journey with that, it doesn't always have to be competence and doesn't have to be complete guardianship. The courts will try to allow the person some independence, but if it can be shown that he can't cope, then some or all oversight can be granted (his funds should pay for this, not any of yours or the ILs.)

If the ILs still can't afford their own place, then you all can still tackle cleaning up the place, but help SIL grow a backbone and have them slowly withdraw from all the help they provide. If necessary, you can increase your Grinch repertoire to include directing him to take on some of the duties required, as he used to do. They've enabled him for a long time, so it won't happen overnight, but between them backing off and you being drill sargeant, get him doing tasks OR teach her how to do it. He's likely physically weaker from not doing it, so it needs to be done in stages, but he needs to either take this on or move to AL.

Remember, even the Grinch had a heart and it grew three sizes!

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Unfortunately, this is what works for your FIL. Don't put any weight into his comments to your husband.

Since there appears to be multiple problems, please get your FIL evaluated for dementia and physical ailments. Don't be surprised if his family doctor refers him to a neurologist (for evaluation and treatment of dementia) and a geriatric psychiatrist (for evaluation and treatment of mental health issues).

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He should have been evaluated a while ago from what I ascertain.
Treatment for dementia? Do you mean medication to keep him calmed down? sedated?

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I feel like we are negotiating with a "terrorist". Is there something we are missing?

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