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My mom is 93 years old. Currently in respite care. We are looking to place mom in a long term facility. Money is dwindling down & my dad is getting worried.
I expect it would be prohibitively expensive, even if you could get anyone to provide cover. As your mother is 93 and certain to require care, the premiums would more or less equal the fees because the risk is approaching 100%. You can *ask*, but...
Is your father also likely to need care for himself? I think the best thing would be to get professional advice on care planning, looking at their assets, income and needs jointly, as a couple.
Needhelp12, usually when people purchase Long Term Insurance is back when they are in their 50's and 60's. Due to Mom's age, as Countrymouse above had mentioned, it could be very difficult to find an insurer who would take Mom at her age and if they did it would be extremely expensive. There could even be a waiting time before the insurance could even be used, and a limit on how many years said long term insurance can be used.
Having just done our wills, DH and I were advised against buying LTC ins. Told that even at our ages 61 and 66--it would be super expensive and we have saved and invested to the point that should the need arise, we're covered. Attorney said that they base the cost of LTC policies on actuarial tables and past a certain point, you are essentially uninsurable. At 93, I think that ship may have sailed.
My mother was always so proud she had a LTC policy. Guess how much it pays out? $35 a day. She's had this since 1976. It's basically worthless, and they spent thousands of dollars on it.
@midkid58, Most policies purchased before 1997 were worthless. My relative's policy is paying $10,000 per month. It covers the full cost of care in her assisted living facility. The idea behind long-term care insurance is to protect the lifestyle of the healthy spouse. Nothing wrong with "self-insuring" as long as you can live on whatever is leftover after your husband needs care. FWIW a healthy couple in their early sixties can share $500,000 of long-term care insurance benefits for about $130 per month per spouse. I'm not sure why the attorney would think that was "prohibitively expensive".
Point of order - I used the expression prohibitively expensive in the context of a 93 year old who is currently in respite care and is expected to move thereafter to a facility.
But in any case while we're thinking about the couple in their early sixties. Assuming no change in premiums, and assuming they would not require long term care for twenty years, then 260 x 12 x 20 = $62,400 in premiums for $500,000 in benefits. Which wouldn't be a bad return if they were in a position ever to claim it. Except, how much care will half a million buy in 2038, do you suppose?
@Needhelp12, Most of the people in nursing homes are on Medicaid. If your parents have $242,000 or more in countable assets, your father can keep about $122,000 of it. If your parents have less than $242,000 in countable assets, your father should be able to keep half. But you've got to apply to Medicaid in order to protect those assets for him. His portion is called the CSRA: Community Spouse Resource Allowance. Don't delay.
@countrymouse, I was directing that comment to midkid58. She actually used the phrase "super expensive" in reference to what a policy would cost for her and her husband.
Regarding your question, "...how much care will half a million buy in 2038, do you suppose?" the answer is that if the policy qualifies as a long-term care partnership policy, then it will protect a half a million of countable assets from Medicaid, even after the policy runs out of benefits. Long-term care Partnership Policies are the perfect solution for the middle class.
Over the past 40 years there have been roughly 150 different insurance companies that have sold long-term care insurance policies. Three of those insurance companies went through liquidation. All three companies were very small with financial ratings that were well BELOW average. Combined those three companies had less than a 2% market share of LTC insurance policies. The claims of those companies are being handled by the state guaranty associations. Long-term care insurance companies cannot decide to "close". They are obligated to pay all claims.
LTCshop- your a broker / Agent aren’t you? So what’s your commission on “partnership” type of policies you often tout? And what’s the renewing commission schedule after the initial?
NeedHelp - as others have said, at age 93 she is outside of the actuarial tables that are used for risk. And not just for insurance but for other financials - like a traditional mortgage.
Regarding LTC policies, my mom’s NH did NOT & would NOT accept any LTC policies. On a very defined sign in entry area and at nurses stations: Medicare, Medicaid or private pay only. I asked billing why and he said that for them (NH part of a small group of NHs) dealing with LTC insurance was way way too cumbersome. That each insurer had its own criteria and paperwork submitted to be paid; and there was a lot of foot dragging with insurers wanting additional information. The NH could easily fill their beds between Medicaid residents (& the state paid in real time), Medicare rehab stays and private pay residents, so no need to ever deal with LTC policies.
I have no idea IF this is a one-off or a trend. But if it is a trend then LTC policies will be good only for those who can stay in their home AND have family to provide all the other support when LTC personnel not there. The well spouse likely is the same age range & has their own health / aging issues, so family have to have the time & ability to caregive and plus deal with the household. If the elder gets to the point of 24/7 oversight needed no LTC policy will ever pay that coverage.
The Long-Term Care Partnership Program is a Federally-supported, state-operated initiative that allows individuals who purchase a qualified long term care insurance policy or coverage to protect a portion of their assets that they would typically need to spend down prior to qualifying for Medicaid coverage.
@igloo, That is strange that your mother's nursing home did not accept long-term care policies. One of my sorority sisters is an administrator at a nursing home and has been for years. She pestered me until I bought a policy for me and DH. She helped me pick it out based upon her experience with the companies. She said some companies paid faster than others.
@igloo, My mother has a policy and it's paying for most of the cost of her care in an assisted living facility. The policy picks up most of the expenses and her social security check makes up the difference. Do you know why
MrsWright - what billing office told me was that LTC polices got to be just too cumbersome paperwork wise to deal with. LTC was too much staff time disproportionately for # of residents. That the Genworth policies had HQ with staffed personnel that could deal with issues, move claims along, respond in decent timeframe to submitted paperwork. But among the other various LTC insurers there was always ALWAYS something else needed for payment to get cleared. Like wanting details on staffing ratios and education/ certification on caregivers as the policy was tied to care being done by an RN.... and things often lost....or done via snail mail. The vibe I got was that for some LTC the MO was to do whatever to delay payment. This NH was part of a small chain & all stopped accepting LTC policies for payment. They could easily fill beds from Medicaid, Medicare rehab & private pay.
It reminded of dealing with insurance post Hurricane Katrina, whatever an insurance could do to delay payment was thrown at you.
Well, I definitely don't want to rely on Medicaid. And I'm not about to draw down our retirement accounts if DH or I need care, so I guess I'll "take my chances" with our LTC insurance policies. Funny, right after reading your post, I found an article by a home care agency that processes long-term care claims. I printed it out and filed it with our policies to remind us what to do when we file a claim. Here's a link to that article in case you're interested in learning more about it:
It never crossed my mind to ask our state farm agent how much commission he makes on our home and auto insurance. I'm sure the woman who sold us our ltc policies made a commission too. I don't expect anyone to work for free do you?
Naturally not; but that is why it is better to pay a financial advisor a fee for advice, rather than go to one whose commission is a closed book to you. Brokers paid on commission are incentivised to sell the most profitable policy whether or not it is, objectively, the best suited to their clients' needs. Moreover, they may be restricted in terms of what financial products they're able to offer, depending on how closely linked they are to insurers. And most important of all: their customer base comprises mainly worried, elderly people who have never done this before and can't possibly know what lies ahead. Not every brand in the market is a shark but these waters are most certainly thickly infested.
My great aunt took out cover with a very respectable provider indeed. Twenty years later it paid approximately one fifth of her care home fees. Well! - she could have taken out five times as much cover, or she could have done what she did do and let her bank invest the money for her instead. What you lose on the swings...
To be fair: properly regulatedLTC policies are not pyramid schemes (or not nearly to the same extent as governmental funding is, anyway). Premium income is invested (which is why you *do* care what the stock market does - that's your pension, your health insurance, your mortgage cover at stake); and in addition risk is laid off to reinsurers.
I'm sorry to hear about your great aunt's policy, countrymouse. My mother's policy pays for most of her assisted living facility. If I recall correctly, the facility is about $6,000 per month and her policy pays about $4,500. My friend, the nursing home administrator, helped us figure out how much to buy. She made sure we bought an inflation rider to keep the benefits growing every year so that we don't end up in a situation like your great aunt did. We didn't use a financial advisor. We met with one several years back and she told us we were candidates for the insurance based upon our assets and projected pensions and social security but we didn't do anything about it until recently. We did interview a few different "brokers" to try to get the best deal and we believe we did.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
B.
APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
Is your father also likely to need care for himself? I think the best thing would be to get professional advice on care planning, looking at their assets, income and needs jointly, as a couple.
My mother was always so proud she had a LTC policy. Guess how much it pays out? $35 a day. She's had this since 1976. It's basically worthless, and they spent thousands of dollars on it.
Most policies purchased before 1997 were worthless. My relative's policy is paying $10,000 per month. It covers the full cost of care in her assisted living facility. The idea behind long-term care insurance is to protect the lifestyle of the healthy spouse. Nothing wrong with "self-insuring" as long as you can live on whatever is leftover after your husband needs care. FWIW a healthy couple in their early sixties can share $500,000 of long-term care insurance benefits for about $130 per month per spouse. I'm not sure why the attorney would think that was "prohibitively expensive".
But in any case while we're thinking about the couple in their early sixties. Assuming no change in premiums, and assuming they would not require long term care for twenty years, then 260 x 12 x 20 = $62,400 in premiums for $500,000 in benefits. Which wouldn't be a bad return if they were in a position ever to claim it. Except, how much care will half a million buy in 2038, do you suppose?
Most of the people in nursing homes are on Medicaid. If your parents have $242,000 or more in countable assets, your father can keep about $122,000 of it. If your parents have less than $242,000 in countable assets, your father should be able to keep half. But you've got to apply to Medicaid in order to protect those assets for him. His portion is called the CSRA: Community Spouse Resource Allowance. Don't delay.
I was directing that comment to midkid58. She actually used the phrase "super expensive" in reference to what a policy would cost for her and her husband.
Regarding your question, "...how much care will half a million buy in 2038, do you suppose?" the answer is that if the policy qualifies as a long-term care partnership policy, then it will protect a half a million of countable assets from Medicaid, even after the policy runs out of benefits. Long-term care Partnership Policies are the perfect solution for the middle class.
So what’s your commission on “partnership” type of policies you often tout?
And what’s the renewing commission schedule after the initial?
NeedHelp - as others have said, at age 93 she is outside of the actuarial tables that are used for risk. And not just for insurance but for other financials - like a traditional mortgage.
Regarding LTC policies, my mom’s NH did NOT & would NOT accept any LTC policies. On a very defined sign in entry area and at nurses stations: Medicare, Medicaid or private pay only. I asked billing why and he said that for them (NH part of a small group of NHs) dealing with LTC insurance was way way too cumbersome. That each insurer had its own criteria and paperwork submitted to be paid; and there was a lot of foot dragging with insurers wanting additional information. The NH could easily fill their beds between Medicaid residents (& the state paid in real time), Medicare rehab stays and private pay residents, so no need to ever deal with LTC policies.
I have no idea IF this is a one-off or a trend. But if it is a trend then LTC policies will be good only for those who can stay in their home AND have family to provide all the other support when LTC personnel not there. The well spouse likely is the same age range & has their own health / aging issues, so family have to have the time & ability to caregive and plus deal with the household. If the elder gets to the point of 24/7 oversight needed no LTC policy will ever pay that coverage.
That is strange that your mother's nursing home did not accept long-term care policies. One of my sorority sisters is an administrator at a nursing home and has been for years. She pestered me until I bought a policy for me and DH. She helped me pick it out based upon her experience with the companies. She said some companies paid faster than others.
My mother has a policy and it's paying for most of the cost of her care in an assisted living facility. The policy picks up most of the expenses and her social security check makes up the difference. Do you know why
It reminded of dealing with insurance post Hurricane Katrina, whatever an insurance could do to delay payment was thrown at you.
amadaseniorcare.com/blog/2018/04/read-this-before-you-file-your-long-term-care-insurance-claim/
My great aunt took out cover with a very respectable provider indeed. Twenty years later it paid approximately one fifth of her care home fees. Well! - she could have taken out five times as much cover, or she could have done what she did do and let her bank invest the money for her instead. What you lose on the swings...
To be fair: properly regulatedLTC policies are not pyramid schemes (or not nearly to the same extent as governmental funding is, anyway). Premium income is invested (which is why you *do* care what the stock market does - that's your pension, your health insurance, your mortgage cover at stake); and in addition risk is laid off to reinsurers.