Just when I thought I could have some piece of mind. I have posted before.... MIL has not been successfully managing her finances and was looking to us for help. When she resisted letting us know what her cash flow was, we withdrew our help. That was last fall. Now she is behind again, has unpaid tax bills and turned to us again. Again I expressed that if she needed continuous help, we needed to be more involved. I finally came up with a plan that she accepted. We would create a separate account for bill paying, which we would manage. Her SSI check would get divided between the two accounts; we had worked out the amounts so that she would have money in her original account for just groceries, incidentals and cash; this account we would let her manage. The rest of the funds would go into the bill paying account. She seemed to be comfortable with the amount that would be left under her control; the amount going into the bill paying account would not quite cover everything, but the amount we would end up supplementing was more comfortable for us. When I went to the bank to ask how to go about setting this up, they said we would first need to obtain power of attorney to do this. Yesterday she was ok with this. Today she called a legal resource who advised her not to sign the POA - that it was something done when someone was determined to be incompetent. So she's changed her mind. Yet she seems to like not having to manage the bills.She wants to just write us a check each month - the same amount that would have gone into the bill paying account. We would deposit into one of our own accounts and we would pay bills from there. So at least she is accepting of some financial management help. But I am worried that this arrangement, in the absense of POA, would also leave us vulnerable. My husband only has one sibling who has not been directly involved as much. Would we end up getting accused of taking her money? Should I have MIL sign some kind of agreement/contract stating she is giving us this stated amount each month, of her own free will, for us to manage her bills? Any advice would be appreciated.
Another option is the be representative payee ( SS or SSI) and this is the web page:https://www.ssa.gov/payee/faqrep.htm
I bailed my parent out more than once until I finally realized that I was just enabling a bad situation. Chances are your FIL isn't getting a sense of self worth out of "working". It's just that he doesn't know what else to do with himself. That's not uncommon for elderly men.
If your kids are shelling out thousands of dollars a year, they are either very well off for young adults or they are sacrificing some of their own future financial security to indulge their grandparents' reluctance to reign in their wastefulness.
Sounds like dementia. A rational business man (as I assume your FIL once was) would see that he's throwing away his money and would not want to be bailed out by his grandchildren.
We had to have a 'day of reckoning' with my Dad to get him to turn over control of his finances. He did so reluctantly, but after a few months wanted nothing to do with bill paying and bank statements. He doesn't even open his mail now. He leaves it in a pile for me. I think it's been a real relief for him to not have to worry about it because it confounded him. I've found that to be the case with virtually every person I know who had to battle with their parent over finances.
I'm not quite to the same point y'all are but 2 of the 4 kids (other 2 have no extra $$) have to bail my in-laws out of trouble a couple times a year to the tune of $4k or so. Mostly because my 80'yr old FIL refuses to stop 'working' altho his income doesn't come close to matching his business expenses and when we tried to help them budget we discovered they had hid various expenses from us. Further offers to help budget are met with resistance.
We don't want to force FIL to stop 'working' for fear he will lose his vibrancy.
My MIL spends hundreds of dollars on unproven herbal and homeo'pathetic' supplements.
Right now, we figure it is a small price to pay for my FIL feeling like he contributes to society.
I read your questions and answers knowing that these situations are coming our way at some point. Thank you for your honesty, people!
good news. Went over to MIL's today, and she actually had all the envelopes of her bills all organized for me. She basically said, however you want to handle these, I won't interfere. She did indicate the key ones that she doesn't want to be late on, even if I have to play the game of "catch up" on some of the other ones. So it was a good afternoon, I was able to get everything organized and the game plan set up. Her SSI check doesn't get deposited til the end of next week, but after this afternoon I don't anticipate any resistance when it comes time for her to write out the check that will get deposited into the separate account we've set up for paying the bills. I also told her I would keep her posted on the status of things, so she won't be left in the dark, and she will know the general state of her affairs. She actually seemed to be a bit relieved.
What I am hoping for now, is that this will ease the way for a future conversation about a DPOA, to try to gain her understanding of establishing this before her mental/physical situation worsens. Good point from horserider that we should point out that this is something she can change her mind about while she is still competent. She does have her will all set, so that's taken care of.
One step at a time.......
I don't think your Mom's judgement is good anymore, & that makes me think that the lawyer stuff (DPOA, trust, will, etc.) needs to be in place sooner rather than later. She CAN back out of POA while she is still competant, so maybe the knowledge that she can back out will get her to sign (and then you hope for apathy of her never getting around to changing it).
Best of luck!
You have my support. My mother is also very self centered (narcissistic) and independent. At 101 she still manages her finances, and does a good job. I have POA (Canadian so durable and both medical and financial). We do not have Medicare and Medicaid as in the US, but I do foresee some battles in the future, unless she passes while still having the capabilities/resources she has now. I have suggested that she put me on her accounts so I can "keep an eye on things". as she has been thinking people are "stealing" from her. She has some paranoia, though does not have dementia, but has BPD. She is 5 hrs drive away so I will try to set up online banking. At some time she may accuse me of interfering with her accounts/finances and I will deal with that if it comes. Even two years ago she would not have accepted this suggestion, but, although pretty healthy, she is not as strong as she was 2 years ago and knows it. I have said that this is just in case she needs the help. Should she come towards the end of her financial resources, or needs nursing care, it will be a battle, I know, as she would have to move out of her ALF (where she gets maximum care available now) into a nursing home -something she dreads. She has already said that if her money runs out she expects my sister and myself to supply the difference. It is not going to happen. I am retired too, and although fine financially, cannot afford to support someone else. It is difficult I know. Take one step at a time, go over one hurdle at a time. I have decided that I cannot afford to worry too much about what may come for her or for me, but just make sound decisions for today, keeping the future in mind but not worrying about it. Mother always gets mad about something, but I can't let that drive my decisions, so I have detached emotionally. Do what you think is right and if she gets mad, so be it.
PatatHome01
"Mom, we'll help you if one of us has DPOA and if you agree to the two bank accounts we talked about. Otherwise you are on you own. You are free to decide. We will respect your decision either way. But we have made our decision. No POA, no further involvement by us in your finances. To make sure we do things right. we are willing for the 3 of us to go to an attorney specializing in elder law."
If your MIL has both a savings and checking account at the bank, you could go online and transfer her spending money to savings and instruct her to only use her debit card on that account (if she complies, my dad often doesn't!). You can pay her bills from checking. This way, the deposit slips will provide a paper trail for the support you're giving her each month (I'd deposit your own personal check for additional documentation).
Be sure to set the "overdraft protection" on her account so that she cannot withdraw money from an empty account. Choose the option carefully. Read the definitions. During the 'wild west' years of deregulated banking, they started calling the options exactly what they weren't! My dad was tallying up $12 fees to withdraw $20 from an empty account because it had "overdraft protection"!
However, this does not address the critical need for a POA as mentioned by others in this thread. It MUST be done while she is still considered to be of sound mind, as the medically-declared incompetent person cannot sign legal documents.
POA is NOT just for the incompetent - it allows the person you designate, to act on your behalf in any or all situations. You can put restrictions on it, if you want. Look online for sample forms.
Sounds like your issue is more that of convincing MIL of this necessity.
Good luck to you.
Please go back and ask again about the POA.
Try setting up her account online, you can do this with her San and checking acct number at most banks. This should take care of it and satisfy both of your needs.
Parents can get very distrustful even of their own children as they age. They hear and read the same stories we do about children stealing or unscrupulous acct mgt so even us honest ones bear the brunt of this distrust. I understand as I wouldn't easily relinquish my accts either.
Hope this idea helps. Works for me.
I know that an estate attorney could answer what kind of documentation about the transferred funds would be sufficient for eventual medicaid purposes. Maybe someone else who has been through something similar in your state has already gotten that kind of advice will chime in so you don't have to pay the hefty legal fee for the advice.
I'm sorry to hear that she got such bad advice about the POA. Does she understand that there are lots of things that you won't be able to do for her if she does become incompetent without one? Once she is incompetent, she can't sign a POA because incompetent people aren't supposed to go signing legal documents. If they could, you wouldn't need POAs in the first place.