Narcissistic hoarding mother is sabotaging senior apartment availability. Any advice?
Hi everyone. Thank you in advance for any advice you can give me. My mom didn't raise me; my grandparents did. I'm 58 so my relationship with my mom has been a strained frustrating one for a LONG time. And I've been in therapy forever...due to this relationship. She is 77 and lives in a hoarding filthy house that I haven't been inside for over 25 years. She doesn't have heat or running water and lives in a home that is falling apart. It should be condemned. We are in the north so it is freezing in the house.
She sleeps in a chair with several blankets in the landfill living room as the rest of the house is not accessible except for the kitchen and it is horrible beyond belief from what she tells me. I did stand at the door a few months ago and she couldn't even open it more than a few inches due to the garbage.
The funny thing is she dresses immaculately (name brand only) and gets her hair done weekly along with a mani and pedi. She barely brings in $1K a month in SS. Luckily her home is paid for but worth nothing due to the condition. She was willed the house by my grandparents 40 years ago.
The deal is, I have been trying for years to get her into a senior living environment and have applied to numerous low-income senior apartments. She has turned down several. I live out of state from her and cannot go with her unfortunately so I have no idea what she says to the managers of these places. She usually tells me that she makes too much money and they turned her down. That's a lie.
Anyway, she has an appointment next week and is already making excuses about the location, size of the apartment, stove size, no room for her clothes, etc. (It was her selection so I am not even sure what to say anymore.) I'm tired of dealing with her after spending hours researching and filling out applications or calling on her behalf I just know she will not take this place.
She insists on staying with me in the winter in my small 1 bedroom apartment. I work from home so this is not a good mix. One time she even told me to turn down my computer (I was on an MS Teams meeting) so she could hear her TV show. I am at the end of my rope. Does anyone have any advice? I would love to go no contact but I feel guilty. She's 77 and has no one due to her caustic personality. I am her only child.
What should I do?
Sorry for the long post. I'm near a nervous breakdown. If she turns this place down, she will insist on coming here (via bus) and stay for the rest of the winter. I can't. :-(
22 Answers
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Isn’t guilt something you feel when YOU'VE done something wrong?
Tell me what YOU'VE done wrong in this situation.
Your mother should feel ashamed and guilty, but she doesn't. She's mentally ill.
THAT is also not your fault.
I suspect what you actually feel is sad. Sad that you got dealt a bad mother hand. Sad that there is no way to fix this except to let go of it and call APS.
That's the only way your mother is going to get what she NEEDS.
Can we put our heads together to put that into a real action plan?
I'm thinking, Suggest, Advice, Walk the Talk.
One last attempt to suggest eg Hey Mom, better get your heating & water fixed. Here's a phone number.
Or take that housing offer. Here is the number.
(Or even, I've arranged the repair co & housing co to call you Mom).
Advice: Mom you can't stay at my place this winter. I'm really serious. I'm not inviting you to stay. Is that clear?
If you come to my state to visit, you will need to stay elsewhere, like a motel. We can meet up for lunches but you cannot stay with me.
Walk the Talk. Check out the local motels & Greyhound tickets. If Mom does turn up uninvited, drive her to a cafe for a meal, then back to the bus stop or a motel - her choice. I would consider paying for her bus ride home if that same day & I would put her on it myself. Or pay for 1 night motel stay (pay the motel directly, not Mom).
I have had to leave LO's uncollected, told kidult's overnight guests to leave but not had this level of challenge. So sugestions welcome!
"Insight, Mrs X, is a highly over-rated commodity. It's what actions you take as a result of the insight that matters, and changes your life."
THAT changed my life.
The very first time I met my therapist he looked at me and said, “I know that I will say things that you probably won’t like, so if you can’t take it, leave now. Stick with this and you will begin to see things as they really are.” I knew right then that I liked him. He cared.
He wasn’t by any means heartless. He was a no nonsense sort of guy. He did have empathy though. Once he gave me the entire box of tissues on his desk before leaving that day. It was a rough session. Lots of bad memories.
We get out of therapy, whatever we are willing to put into it. If we invest nothing, we can’t complain that we got nothing in return. We need people who challenge us to believe that things will improve.
SO?
So what? (I stole this from Needshelpwithmom's therapist).
What are you afraid of?
That she'll cut you off (that would be a good thing, wouldn't it?)
That she won't love you any more? (Is what she's doing now called love?)
Look, we all wish that we have/had perfect loving mommies. But we don't. Some of us have/had "good enough" mothers. You don't.
You have a mentally ill mother.
Your job is NOT to fix her. Your job is to survive her.
The only way she gets help is if you call APS. Again and again and again. Eventually they will step in.
YOU need to stay away and keep your mother away from you. Feel grief, not guilt.
This is NOT your fault.
One time my therapist did say..."would you like her as a neighbor or coworker?" And that was a big fat NO. So she said..."then why put up with her as your mother?" It did change my perspective some but again, I walk around with this guilt which is MY issue that I need to change.
Thank you for your "tough" love talk BarbBrooklyn. I really do understand where you are coming from and it makes a lot of sense.
"... I am not handling this very forceful or adult-like."
eastwest, you are insightful. You know your weakness. You are also right about changing therapist. S/he should have guided you on how to become stronger, more confident, more self-assured. Handing you perfect scripts is useless since you have no ability to use them. It's like telling you how to chop down a big old tree, but all you have is a plastic knife.
You should stop wasting money on this useless therapist. Time to find a better one who can teach you baby steps that you must take for yourself in order to build your confidence.
Same thing with all the good advice you receive here, if you aren't able to put them in practice, then they are of no use.
I've read your replies to the responses here. You getting therapy is not going to help your mother's hoarding addiction.
You can talk about it with a therapist for the rest of your life, but it isn't going to address her problem or the problem of you being her enabler so she can maintain her hoard and stay active in her hoarding addiction.
She's manipulating you to be her enabler because she is an addict like any other.
I was manipulated to enable my first husband for 12 years. He was an alcoholic. The addiction is different but the behavior and tactics of the addict are the same.
You need to make sure your mother knows she is being thrown out of your place. No exceptions. Either she takes the apartment or she gets placed in a care facility.
Of course you feel for your mother and want to help her. Of course it doesn't feel very good when you have to be hard on a person. Sometimes it's necessary to be hard on a person and always on an addict. It's the only way they will ever consider help and recovery.
If you're having a nervous breakdown the cause of it is not your mother. You don't even live in the same state as this woman. You have not been to her house in 25 years. You have your own place and are independent. You do not depend on your mother for anything. You have choices. Working yourself up into a nervous breakdown over your mother showing up to stay with you is ridiculous. I hope for your sake your therapist has told you this.
If you don't want your mother staying at your place, she will not be. You may have to be a little mean. You may have to involve APS. Do what you have to do, but please don't make your 77 year old elderly mother the reason why you an independent, self-sufficient, functioning adult works themselves up into a nervous breakdown. Don't do that to yourself.
My mom isn't with me today; however, she wants to come to my apartment mid-February. She lives in the next state over from me and does not drive. She is very mobile and will jump on the Greyhound and show up via Uber. What can I do...just hide and not let her in? I can't. I know it's crazy but this is my world and I am not handling this very forceful or adult-like."
I'm putting OP's reply in a separate comment so it isn't lost. While I'm glad your therapist is giving you scripts, they aren't working because you shut down when your mother gets angry. I was with that, too, when my mother did that. My solution was that I got silent, and started speaking to her less and less (she also had hearing problems). BTW I didn't live with her.
If your mother is coming in mid-February (next week?), then how long does she usually stay? Next month it will be spring. I am concerned (as you are) that she will hop on the bus and get an Uber. She will just show up. I hope some here have good suggestions on what to do about that. My only suggestion would be to call APS ASAP.
Don't apologize for handling things the way you have been. Stick with us, and we will cheerlead you to handle things in a different way, a way that will result in a better situation for you. It's not easy, but I really hope you can do it!
There comes a time when a person has to step over the threshold into adulthood.
The shutting down when mommy gets nasty and acts up has to stop at some point.
It's one thing when some adult lives with an abusive and manipulative parent out of necessity. In such case the parent has the upper hand and that adult really has limited choices. They get the hell out of mommy or daddy's house, or they have to live with the abuse.
The OP does not live with her mother. She is not dependent on her for anything. So her choices are unlimited. She does not have to tolerate one moment of her mother's verbal abuse or manipulative behavior. She does not have to be her enabler either. In fact, she doesn't even have to see or speak to her. If mom shows up at her house after being told not to, don't let her in. Call the cops and APS then.
The cowering and shutting down is nonsense when someone is an independent adult.
I'm wondering about your whys behind not calling APS, to report an adult at risk - for this is what it is right? Lack of self-care skills & self-neglect are not always easy to see. Not always the soiled, unwashed, disheveled clothed person who smells bad.
Many people with Hoarding Disorder suffer self-neglect. Ignoring essential home maintenance for heating & water are part of iADLs. These need to be done in order to look after ourselves (unless we live in supported accom). But these things are 'not fun'.
Self care like nice outfits & pretty nails, these are 'fun'.
I'm getting a pictute of your Mom (I may be wrong) but ADHD comes to mind. Or other attention deficit, especially *motivation issues* common with many mental illnesses.
My own family member can shop for pretty socks but not for essential clothing. She suffers severe damage to 'executive functioning' cognitive skills among other disabilities. Mother Natute didn't provide her the skills to live independently. It is what is is 😶 but she has trust. She trusts others to do what she cannot.
If your Mom has low trust in others, she may block out other people helping her.
If you also have low trust (no judgement) you may also be reluctant to involve APS. Yet that step may be needed to evoke any real change for your Mom.
You mentioned fear prevented you calling. Why not call & be anonymous? Ask how the system works before any report gets made. Find out about any filial laws in your state etc. I don't believe the law means an adult child will be forced to provide hands-on care or be impoverished. Don't guess what APS will do or stay fearful. Find out the facts.
"My Mother cannot live with me". That's all that needs to be said to APS. No reason about your home size, your job, your health. Just "No. I cannot".
Sorry I wrote so much.. I wish you had the Hoarders TV crew Psychologist to help you!
She has refused your help regarding housing options multiple times.
Do you agree?
Are you thinking you MUST help her? Change her ways?
Is that what is driving you?
Or are you trying to avoid having to put her up?
What about changing what YOU are doing?
Afterall, you can't change Mom right?
The next thing I think you need to do is let go of trying to get her to move. She is a hoarder and she isn’t going to leave her stuff. It’s an illness and without professional help I don’t think your going to be able to change it. You have tried, more than tried and make sure she knows that if she chooses to start investigating senior housing you are happy to help again but unless she has been diagnosed with cognitive issues and you have her DPOA it has to be her decision. The state could come in and condemn to house, take guardianship and commit her or both but depending on the state this might be more unlikely that her wanting to move. She has enough self preservation to move for the winter since she doesn’t have heat or water so maybe not having a place to go (your house) will make her take this last appointment you have set up (last unless she asks you to and participates) more seriously and not sabotage things but don’t count on it unfortunately. There is nothing more you can do, she is still responsible for herself and if she chooses to live in that house the way it is that’s her choice. If you have the energy or need to focus energy on something to help her do some investigating about treatment and ways to get her there. Sometimes it’s easier in these situations to let strangers help than it is family and that’s not such a bad thing. You are there to help if she wants it but she has to ask and moving in with you for the winter is not an option. My thoughts are with you, hang in there.
You know as well as everyone else that your mom has mental health issues. You do not have the power to reason with her.
The thing that jumps out at me in your posting is that you mention that you have guilt. Of course, you feel badly about how she is living. Who wouldn’t feel awful about their mom living in filth and clutter?
Have you ever called APS? If so, what happened? Are her neighbors aware of her circumstances? Sometimes when there are a group of people complaining instead of just one, things get resolved faster.
Neighbors don’t appreciate living next door to a hoarder because it can affect property values. They also don’t want to have rats and insects so close to them.
Have you contacted any of her neighbors?
You need your job. If you work at home it isn’t going to work out for her to be there. How can you adequately focus on your work when she is interfering?
As hard as it may be for you, she needs to be told that she can no longer stay in your home.
I think that it is wonderful that you have put forth effort to find her a place to live. She has to want it too. She has proven to you over and over that she doesn’t. She is mentally unstable and isn’t able to think clearly.
I know that she is your mom and I respect that you care about her but you do not owe her anything. You have been more than generous with her.
If she doesn’t accept your offer of moving forward into a safe place then you can’t force her. Let APS handle it.
Best wishes to you and your mother.
What she really wants is to live with you and to maintain her hoard. She's going to sabotage the meeting next week for the apartment unless you go with her.
Hoarding is an addiction. Hoarders are the same as any other addict. They will manipulate their enablers and do what they have to so they can remain active in their addiction. You have become her enabler by letting her stay with you. Nothing and no one can help your mother unless she's willing to accept help.
Your mother like any other addict needs some tough love from their enabler. So you're up, my friend.
Here's the choice you should offer her. Either she accepts the apartment she's going for next week, or you have her evicted from your place. No exceptions. Make sure she knows you're serious and mean business.
In the meantime, while she's at your house put in a call to the Department of Public Health in the city/town she lives in. Tell them about the dangerous and filthy hoard that she calls home which is no doubt infested with vermin and bugs as well as filth and garbage. You can even make this an annonymous call. They will condemn the house and rightly so.
If your mother has no hoard to return to, it will force her to accept help for her addiction, and at 77 is she doesn't accept help for the hoarding addiction, the state will put her in facility care. There's nothing to hoard in a nursing home.
Good luck to you. Stay strong.
I have dealt, personally with enough hoarders (both clean and 'dirty' and it sounds like your mom is a 'dirty' hoarder) to know that without help, they will not make one step towards change of any kind. And the rate of recidivism is sky high--the ONLY hoarder I saw who 'got well' was a man whose only daughter simply got legal guardianship of him and had his apt cleaned and then moved him to a place she can keep a weekly eye on him. His hoarding tendencies are still very much there--he simply isn't given enough money to really DO anything with it, and she either has a cleaner go in once a week or she cleans his place. She said it was the only way, after 40+ years of living in squalor that he has had food in the house instead of liquor and has no way to GET alcohol--etc. etc. It's brutal on her, her family and her life, but it's the ONLY way to keep him in check.
You call APS and report the house. INSIST that they do a real 'safety check' not just a quick peek inside. They need to see what you see. Sadly, this isn't going to go well with mom, but right now, you are just one huge enabler. If it's possible, meet the APS people at the house and walk them through. I had to report a 'friend' and APS agents just stood at the door and glanced around. I MADE them come in and see what she had 'hidden'. so to speak. It was awful and she was cited and also offered help.
Your mom isn't dumb, she's actually very crafty, b/c she probably KNOWS you won't kick her out. But you need to get to your therapist and learn the 'language' that you'll need to to get her out of your life and home so you can have peace and space. My therapist was great at giving me actual 'scripts' as to what to say to people who were difficult for me.
There's always a chance she'll get the new apartment, but I wouldn't offer to help her move, unless I was totally prepared for a horrible experience--which she will blame YOU for.
Good Luck, you will need it.
Is the senior apartment out of state, or near you? Does she drive?
In all the years of therapy, hasn't a therapist given you advice on how to handle this situation?
My mom isn't with me today; however, she wants to come to my apartment mid-February. She lives in the next state over from me and does not drive. She is very mobile and will jump on the Greyhound and show up via Uber. What can I do...just hide and not let her in? I can't. I know it's crazy but this is my world and I am not handling this very forceful or adult-like.
I think there is mental illness here.
I think your Mom has never been in your life and should not be in it now, no matter a blood connection. I don't think you can or are qualified to help her.
She should be reported to APS for wellness. You should not take on POA, guardianship nor take her into your home. Your Mom has mental illness, and you and I aren't qualified to diagnose it, but it goes far beyond narcissism. She should be in the guardianship of the state. Tell the APS that she is a senior in danger and that she needs help and likely placement and that family cannot deal with her.
I recommend your getting at once the memoir written by Liz Scheier, name of Never Simple. She tried to help her mother along with the help of the city and state of New York for many decades all to no avail and to much grief.
Do not give your life up in sacrifice on the altar to a mother you never had. I am glad to know your grandparents were there for you. They were the ones who raised you and to whom you owe filial love and obligation. I suspect they LONG AGO gave up on their daughter when they were alive. You should follow that example.
Sorry. Not everything can be fixed. You will not get your mother into housing, and she should not be foisted onto others who ARE in said housing.
Put in an order from Amazon for the Liz Scheier book. Thank you for the suggestion.
I am scared of what family/friends will think of me if I leave a 77 year old woman on her own to freeze to death or die from heat and no toilet facilities or water. My mother is very convincing and charming to everyone except me and her only grandchild. I will be viewed as selfish by them however I do have my circle of friends telling me to stop being a martyr. I just need to get it through my head that she will never be the mother or grandmother I yearn for.
I look forward to reading your suggested book. Thank you again for taking the time to help me out.
Time to stand up and be counted and stop letting her control you.
As for the other mess, let her be, eventually something will happen. She is mentally ill, she will never change,
You need some help to stand up to her, a therapist might be of help to you.
Taking the mother in for the winter will enable her to keep her hoard through the winter at least while not having to stay in the house with no heat. I hope the mother will go into the apartment and into recovery for her hoarding addiction.
You need to call APS. They need to evaluate her situation. Let them take over. They will find her a place, maybe a NH. Let the State become her guardian.
On 1k a month your Mom can't afford anything but HUD housing. Were u planning on paying for her rent? If so, you shouldn't. There is help out there.
Yes, I have only applied for low-income for her. You are right, she can't afford anything else but she doesn't want to spend the 30% for an apartment as she has had no rent for over 40 years due to being given the house by my grandparents. And sadly, I have offered to pay for a studio for her but she didn't want it because it was too small for all her clothes.
And I do plan on helping her with her rent if she does take the apartment but only 1/2 not full rent. I know...I'm a sucker.
Sorry I'm giving so much information...I'm just venting and in a tailspin.
Thank you JoAnn29. Appreciate your feedback.
Good to see you here on the forum after the most recent loss of your dear wife.
I believe that what you are doing, in helping others, will help you somehow.
Don't let her live with you in the winter. I know it sounds cruel and harsh, but you cannot give your life over to her. APS can help, but at no point should you acquiesce to her staying with you. "I am unable to care for her safely." Hard stop, no further discussion. Social services will do everything they can to change your mind. As another post talked about, our society is not equipped to care for the huge population of people needing care facilities.
If you want to stay in touch, meet her after she gets her nails done for lunch. But protect yourself. A mother should want to protect her child, but so many forget that as they age.
Hang in there.
I agree with you about social services trying to push her care off on me and that really scares me. But you are right. I have to stand up for myself. I am losing my mind and it really is just saying "No". I don't know why this is so hard for me.
Thank you again TeethGrinder65!
She's mentally ill and has a right to live as she chooses, but they may be able to pay for cleanup and basic stuff like water. Or they'll take her into care.
But they need to know about her situation.
Please call them today. If you need any help finding the number, we are here to help.
I am also scared as I have seen on here where someone said certain states make it the children's responsibility to provide for their parents regardless. Not sure if that is true but I am not in a position to provide for her on a daily basis.
Why should she accept the apartment when you are enabling her to say "no" to you?
Value your own mental health and physical comfort.
And find a different therapist who will push you to stand up for yourself, if the current one doesn't.