My grandmother is 86, has Parkinsons & Alzheimers. She is weak & dependent on others for care. She is living with my aunt (her daughter) & my sister is her caregiver. (comes in daily 8:30-5) My aunt has steadily drained my grammie's bank acct. to the tune of over 100K over the last 8 months. She has manipulated my grandmother & has her kind of brainwashed. They have a rather sick relationship. I just recently learned my aunt is "convincing" my grandmother to sign over the rest of her $ (only 40K left now) to her, as well as her house, so she can qualify for govt. assistance/medical care.
1st of all, she probably won't get it anyway because they'd find out about the transfer of funds & deny her. But by then my grandmother's $ will be gone. My aunt gives it all to her drug addict son & her other son who barely works. Plus she spends large amounts on herself.
She also ignores my grandmother, doesn't give her meds properly, rarely makes sure she bathes, & leaves her alone for long periods. It's deplorable. I'm stuck here as my sister's source of income is my grandmother. If I report all this she may very well lose her job. Of course my aunt will hate me as well.
The rest of the family isn't even aware of what my aunt is doing. She is such a master manipulator that no one suspects & they all think she's a saint for taking care of her mom. If only they knew. I have recently told one of my uncles. He's says he's going to look into it. Anyone else experienced anything like this? Should I just call adult protective services? This is such a mess. Also, my grandmother, even though she's being mistreated, will defend her daughter. She is so brainwashed she will back her up probably. I don't want her to hate me. I love my grammie very much. It kills me to watch this.....
If your sister is paid to take care of her shouldn't that include bathing?
I do agree Aunt should not leave her mom alone.
I'm not siding with your Aunt, she may be a horrible swindler, but if the mother will defend her and the Aunt is putting a roof over her head......just devils advocate here as to what she might respond with.
This is sticky. I'm assuming gran is not in imminent danger, my suggestion is that before you contact anyone, can your sister put on her best Nancy Drew and get documentation? What she needs to look for are bank statements that are about 6 to 8 months apart for 3 years, same for receipts for medications, credit card statements. Get them, run to Kinko's & them return them without your aunt or grannie knowing. I would NOT let grannie know what you are doing, as it sounds she is aligned with her daughter no matter what. The checks that are of a significant amount (over 5K) you need to have front & back copies of. If any are over 10K the bank is keeping track of those because of Homeland Security issues
Also you need to find her annual SS retirement statement - this comes out every January so that is right around the corner. If she get's any federal or RR retirement their annual statement come out in Jan too. Make a copy of those and ny other retirement/annuity or other income producing assets. If sis is there 8:30 - 5 every day she has time to do this and do it carefully. This way you have an accurate idea of what gran's assets truly are.
If your gran has selected your aunt as her DPOA, MPOA and perhaps even "Guardian in case of incapacity", then she (your aunt) has the upper hand in all this, so you better make sure whatever documentation you have is locktight. If your sister is getting paid under the table for gran, this could become a real issue in court if she wants co or full guardianship & IRS wise for her.
Gran can choose to give your aunt and her nephews $$$ if she wants to. Even if they are worthless POS. The ? is....is she competent and cognitive to do so?
What does her medical chart say? Has your sister gone to any doctors appointments with her & if so what did the doctor say?
Now if APS comes in who is going to take care of gran? Are you willing to drop and stop everything so gran can move in with you? Do you have a home that can provide her a private room & bath and whatever else is available at your aunt's house? Are you or other family members willing to go to court to be appointed grans guardian or conservator; provide the documentation that you are suitable & perhaps be bonded; and deal with the reporting and court hearings?
I have been executrix twice for 2 aunts estates and probate court where this is held is usually also where they do guardianships/conservatorships and I have heard an earful of family friction on this very issue. It is hard to prove what is elder financial fraud when it is within the family as so much of the $ is co-mingled and the elder often wants to help the family member. The judge has a tough decision. So often they can & usually do the "devil that you know route" that is without obvious abuse like produce photos they are living in absolute squalor, they are in & out of the ER, have open wounds, APS has a pretty damming report, etc, they will usually let the elder continue to live in the home but will tell the caregiver (your aunt) that she has to report to either the court or APS for a period of time. In other words "the devil that you know is better than the devil you don't know". If that happens it will not be pretty for you and your sister will be out of a job.
The other option is for the court of appoint an outsider to handle the elder's case -
The G/C judge does NOT have to appoint you or a family member as the G/C. If there is family friction or abuse, they will appoint an outsider to manage the elder's affairs and that person will be paid to do so out of the person’s assets. There is always a paralegal representing law firms about the courthouse that are there to have their firm appointed as guardian/conservator. The Court has the right to remove the elder from all family members and make him a Ward of the State.
If this happens family is cut out of the picture entirely in where she goes & what the $ is spent on. If there is $ and the family is not all kum-ba-ya on gran's care then the judge will often make them a ward of the state just to shut everybody up.
Regarding your aunts spending down gran's $ in order to qualify for "govt. assistance/medical care", your gran should already be on Medicare, she qualified for that once she turned 65. She might also have a secondary insurer, like BCBS or a Medicare supplement plan. Before you go and contact APS you need to know what's what & available for gran's care.
If your aunt is looking for Medicaid to step in to pay for gran's care then that would likely be when gran moves into a NH. She doesn't need that right now as your sister is being paid for providing in-home care daily. If & when she moves into a NH and applies for Medicaid, the look-back period is 5 years. Could your aunt be planning and doing a spend-down right now so that she is eligible for 2016?
Whatever the case, your aunt or whomever places gran into a NH will need to provide documentation to the state to account for gran's assets for up to 5 years prior to qualify for Medicaid to pay for the NH. Also you sign off in the application for the state to access any accounts gran has, so if $, property or other assets were transfered within that period, the state will find out eventually. A penalty is placed on the persons NH account that the family will have to private pay till the penalty period is over, this usually comes up after they have been accepted into the NH "Medicaid pending". The penalty is a % equation for this which depends on each state's NH average NH rate & medicaid reinbursement. If your aunt has had control over the assets for the 5 years prior, the NH will come to her for the $ if gran is assesed a penalty. She can ask, as DPOA for gran, for the state for a waiver, do an appeal, have hearings, etc - it will keep her busy and can be a real nightmare. So she won't get away from doing this IF she is doing transfers to get gran poor to qualify for Medicaid
My point is you need to think this through carefully. I'd see if there is an aunt or uncle that wants to take over for gran's care and financial management or co-manage it with you. Good Luck.
@mayasbop: The reason I feel stuck is because my sister wasn't reporting her income & is now saying if an investigation is launched things could get twisted & she can be dragged in the middle. She gets medicaid for my neice, whom has asthma & is worried she will not if her income is reported & she will get in trouble for not doing so. So she has asked me not to say anything right now. Puts me in a real bad spot. No, I am not dependent on $ in any way from my grandmother.
As for the brainwashing thing..... Long story short, it has been going on for many, many yrs. My aunt has used her parents for as long as can remember conning them into paying for everything, buying her new appliances, cars, etc, etc. Making them feel they are dependent on her, kind of crippling them as they feel they needed her so much yet at the same time she would be draining them. There is a long history there. Grandfather was ill for a long time before he passed away.
It has just continued. My grandmother will say my aunt is mean & hint around she knows she's spending her money, then a few min. later cozy up to her, or make excuses for her & say things like "poor Suzy, she's going through so much. she's so good." There's a lot more but this is just an example.
I have found out recently that my aunt is behind 2 months on her mortgage & guess who just paid it. Also, she has been paying her kids rent for over a yr. while taking my grams $ & saying she can't pay her bills. My uncle is supposed to be looking into this but I haven't heard yet. I will not wait too long though as I feel I am doing my grammie an injustice. It's my sister's own fault she got herself into this mess with her not reporting things & now she wants me to hold off reporting even though she's the one who tells me all the stuff.
I do not live there, nor am I responsible for her day to day care. I live several states away & only visit. I am aware how hard it is to care for her & commend my aunt for taking her in & giving her a home. I know it's not easy. However, my gram has given up a lot & continues to give up most of her assets. I am working on trying to get her to come stay with us. It's a big job as I'm not sure I can get her to leave. She's said she wants to move out (my gram) but when it comes down to it I'm not sure she'd leave my aunt. Very dependent. And YES, she will defend her. She told my sister once when she was talking about her being mean, "I dont' want to lose my daughter." So I think she'd feel guilty & like she was betraying her. It really is a crappy situation.
No one else in the family has offered to have her stay with them either. ON the contrary, they aren't very involved & offer little support. Family. Sometimes complete strangers can be more compassionate.
Anyway, there are many more questions & I will get to them. I just don't have the time right now to answer all. Thanks again everyone.
I would do a follow up with Uncle, who I assume is Grandmas son....? Have him visit and check her out and talk to him about reporting it. Since you are not a caregiver and am not there on a regular basis I would insist it come from her closer relatives, aka childrlen. If she has AZ some of her complaints my be unfounded (you know I've heard they can turn on loved ones). I would not go to authorities yourself unless you have facts. It seems to me your sister must be doing alot of snooping in the Aunts private business to find out past due payments, paying of rent for son, etc. This I believe is not in good judgement of your sister in fact it is an invasion of privacy that she has been intrusted to be in the home to care for grandma not snoop on the aunt. If it turns out that the Aunt is doing something wrong, I believe you need to let her children do the detective work. Also, I don't know about law, but your sister not turning in pay and getting federal assistance is a no no....probably have to pay it back??? It sounds more of a money issue to me than an abuse issue. I'msorry, that is just my feeling on reading this thread. But by all means, d
o NOT ignore it, just keep on the uncle and aunts to do it....you can threaten that if they don't you will. But I don't see it as your place....states away. Have uncle take grams to doc and see if there are any signs of abuse. Your aunt is providing a home for your grams. And actually, if I hired my neice to look after my mom I would expect her to give meds, bath, feed nutricious meals, visit and nuture, take care of all necessities....not snoop in my private affairs. Sorry this sounds so mean, but it just seems like the only person doing wrong is your sister. :(
Thank you for the info you did give me.
No business of my sisters??? She's the only thing doing something wrong?
1st of all, my aunt TOLD my sister she pays her sons rent. Most all the info my sister has came directly from my aunt. My aunt has told me much of this also.
My sister was in an abusive relationship with her husband & left, moved in with aunt & grandma, & struggling financially. So she didn't report her income, as she probably should have, but my niece is often sick due to a bad case of asthma & she didn't dare to risk losing medicaid. She is normally blatantly honest & I was actually shocked she didn't report her income.
As for my mother...... My mother is mentally ill, narcisstic personality disorder, & very abusive to her children. (me, my sister & brother) I have not spoken to her in almost 2 yrs. after repeated attempts to help her over the yrs. to no avail & only to be treated worse than I have by my worst enemy. So contacting her is not an option. Go ahead & pass judgment on me now too, but you don't know the story so......
Her other children, 2 sons. (my uncles) One I contacted. He's the one who hopefully will deal with this. The other uncle has not been contacted yet, but he has not been very involved with her & quite frankly acts like he doesn't care most of the time & didn't bother with her when she lived in the same town. He also is a huge blabbermouth & you can not trust him wtih ANYTHING sensitive. So I only have one person I could go to, my uncle, whom lives a couple states away from my gram. He is a sensible, reasonable, christian man, with a big heart. I'm sure he will handle it properly.
Lastly, my sister does do all the care mentioned & more... She goes above & beyond!! She is my grandmother's saving grace. So forgive me if I very insulted & annoyed by your comments about my sister. Yes, she does all those things. However, she is not there on the wkend & someone has to care for gram. Not much at all is done. She sleeps most of the day, doesn't bathe, barely takes meds, etc.
I can't get over that statement "but it just seems like the only person doing wrong is your sister. :( "
If you only knew......
BTW, I also know a lot of the things I know because I have always been very close to my gram. Much closer than to my parents. She talks to me openly about things & always has. She is probably closer to me than her children, as she can talk honest & open with me. So forgive me if I feel protective of her & like I should do something even though I'm far away. She was ALWAYS there for me. When my own parents weren't or disowned me, as they often did, gram was always there. She never let me down. So I turn, can not let her down. She's too important. Unfortunately everyone in my family doesn't see that. Especially a couple of her childen!!
Money issue, not abuse? Draining an elderly person's account from over 200K down to 30K in a little over a yr. mainly for your own needs in my boat IS abuse. Financial abuse. So judge on!! I will now move on. Good day.
& guess what? She still plans on having her funds all transferred to her. So you tell me I'm just being paranoid & my aunt is doing nothing wrong. I love my aunt but she has stolen from many of us over the yrs. & is very sneaky & manipulative. She is also VERY smart, brilliant perhaps. She knows what she's doing & is very calculated. Plays stupid very well, or at least thinks she does. Has no idea anyone is onto her. So I won't be dropping it & hoping all will turn out ok.
I'm going to visit my gram right after Xmas. Gram has said many times she wants to come stay with me, so may be exploring that option, even if just for a visit.
..disagreement with her child. My point to that is for
You have a good point in that grammie will stand by her daughter & defend her, regardless. She will do that & I know it. Even if her daughter did something very obviously wrong, she would still defend her & probably be very angry with anyone saying anything against her daughter. No, I don't want to be that person.
thank you to everyone who has given such thoughtful answers. I appreciate all the care & time you took to write.
I am going to continue to be a support with daily phone calls, emails & an ear for all 3 of them. I will be there visiting again soon for a wk. & will go there more often. That's the best I can do.
Just wanted to warn that things can get mean, messy and ultar the family permantly if not handled gently. I am sorry luvmygram that you took my post so critically. My intent was for you to think about the out come for any impulsive decisions.
As far as your sister goes, this country is full of many people not complying with federal rules...I agree your sister does need the help and there are many that abuse the system because they are lazy. I meant no disrespect, it's just if the ball starts rolling and it is probably going to come back on her. That is why I felt you should have the uncle speak with the aunt and maybe put some fear in her so this won't get carried away.
Again, sorry, but if you go to court things can get so twisted and turned.
My daughters dad was in a "vegative state" after a car wreck. She was made guardian. Well the great uncle and aunt who had never been in his house wanted in on the deal because there was a law suite to the tune of 10 million (it was a major company that caused the wreck, negligence ran a stop sign)
They took her to court, lied and had their attorney "imply" that daughter was "sleeping with her dad's doctor". INSANE! She was engaged to a totally different doctors (different city) son and he was in pre med, but they threw that out there and the implication - just the implication which was a lie hurt her. They made the 85 year old uncle a co-guardian. She was a college graduate from IU - on deans list often - graduated from the school of business there. In the end (after 9 years of batttling in court - he passed of a seizure in middle of night - all the court cost, the family feuds meant NOTHING. She was the sole heir. Albiet, the attorneys got 3/4 of the money. They money she got she put in a trust fund for her children, said it was blood money and she wanted no part of it. Once you get involved in the courts....anything goes.
Anyone ever hear of bank fraud? How about mail fraud? How about forgery?