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VI. No Waiver of Your Rights. APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.I agree that: A.I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information"). B.APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink. C.APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site. D.If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records. E.This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year. F.You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
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Hello-My elderly mom has been been declared incompetent by the nursing rehab she is staying in. Soon a volunteer attorney will visit and interview her to see if she can assign a POA. There are bills mounting that need to be paid. My question is, can someone point out real life pros and cons of being a POA vs hiring someone vs having a guardian appointed? There is information on the web (from attorneys) of course they say get an attorney. I am not sure I can take on POA long distance. I would like to either get care for her at her home or get her into the best facility possible. BTW she has around 60K - 50K bill.Thank youKen
A primary question is whether she has legal capacity to assign a PoA. From my personal experience, an attorney can determine this in a private interview to assess capacity and to make sure the elder is not being coerced. The legal capacity bar is pretty low, so a person with some mild dementia and memory loss may still be considered legally able.
A medical doctor can test and provide a diagnosis but is not the one to say whether someone is legally incapacitated or not.
One can go online and download PoA forms, assigning a rep this way (which my Mom did) but it gets hairy if there is contentions within a family. I'm an only child and my Mom is single. She did hers a long time ago. We filled it out, signed it with the requisite witnesses and notarized so it is legally finalized. Again, only do this if there is no chance of any family getting weird about it. We see LOTS of that here on this forum.
Guardianship is pursued through the courts. It can be very expensive for family to go this route and they still must prove incapacity. The difference here is that the guardian is assigned by a judge whether the elder wants a specific person or not, but they are usually so incapacitated that they are unawares.
One can create a Pre-Need Guardianship (legal form) where a person who has capacity names a desired person in the case where the PoA assignment gets screwed up (usually by the elder). Sometimes if a judge sees family infighting over guardianship s/he will assign a 3rd party guardian, or co-guardian (family member + a 3rd party guardian).
If the elder winds up with a court assigned 3rd party guardian, then the family no longer has any control or insight into their elder's affairs. They will be locked out of residences and accounts immediately. No "protected" info is shared (like banking or medical info) but family can still carry on a relationship as long as it is healthy and in the elder's best interests.
If you want input, then you either become the PoA or pursue family guardianship through the courts.
I would caution you, if you do not want to take on POA you REALLY DO NOT WANT GUARDIANSHIP. Look up what the POA can do. Basically, if your Mom can give you this, eventually you will be paying all the bills for her; you would register as the signee for all her accounts, handle all money into and out of account and also keep meticulous records. You are responsible to your MOTHER and not to the court unless you are accused of wrong-doing and someone hires a lawyer to petition the court to examine your records. I did POA and Trustee for my brother and did everything, leaving him a small personal account and giving him monthly accountings. THIS WAS DIFFICULT to do from half the state away and I had to fly to him often. It would be WORSE to attempt for you long distance. To be honest, it is VERY DIFFICULT. Every single entity and bank out there wants something different from you, and puts you through their own wringer until you are literally nuts with it all. It is worse today I am hearing with every entity outsourcing everything, and the folks who handle the outsourcing being not trained, visa workers from East India brought here to work in sort of ghetto home environments.
I am just saying I would not do it. I would not be either POA or Guardian long distance and would NEVER EVER CONSIDER GUARDIAN. Let the state take that on. You can't do anything without court permission and guess what that includes? You CANNOT EVEN RESIGN without court permission. Do not take this on in my humble opinion. Do you really want to handle all this? Sales? Of a home and heaven knows what else? Do you want to handle all the taxes and all the problems when SS says to you "Nope, a POA means nothing to us; from us you have to make yourself the representative payee".
If you haven't done this, don't have time, don't have the knowledge tell this volunteer attorney to let the state appoint a court Fiduciary. Do know, however, if you do that your opinion about sale of anything, placement and where and when it occurs, etc. will not matter. They handle everything.
That's just the opinion of someone who did this out of love and obligation and found the learning curve very steep indeed. I did it 5 years ago when my brother, newly diagnosed with Lewy's asked it of me. I would never do it again, and would ask that a Fiduciary be appointed, but then I am now 82, and honestly the hours on the phone were a nightmare. I once spent from 10 a.m. in the morning to 4:30 p.m. on the phone with spectrum when they inadvertently took the phone service out of my brother's room instead of another resident who had died. I talked to folks across this country and from East India all day. That's how long it took. It was really a farce, but one with nightmareish aspects to it. And this was for a well organized man who had everything set up and in place. So go figure what it would have been otherwise.
Thank you for the insight. To be clear I have no one else to help. I have been handling her bills and accounts. Her rehab is applying for Medicaid. I believe I have gathered the documents they need. She needs to get out of that covid filled rehab asylum. She does have a person staying at her house looking after her cats and doing minimum things.
It would be ideal to have someone handle the financial side of things like a helper but allow my mom to keep her house or choose a better facility. I guess once someone else is appointed you loose all control?
Correct: once someone else is court-appointed you lose control and insight into what they are doing on her behalf. It's not supposed to be a contentious relationship with you and her guardian, but they protect her sovereignty and privacy and have fiduciary responsibilities, and make decisions in her own best interests.
If she has the funds, you can hire a bookkeeper to help handle the financial side of things, but how many things does she really have to manage? As PoA you can become joint on her financial accounts and then put all her bills on auto Bill Pay. You can hire a accountant to do any taxes. And once the Medicaid app is complete and she is qualified, then you will only need to reapply maybe 1 or 2 years more and if there's no change she won't have to reapply for several years. Maybe she has a lot of investments to manage? If she assigns you latitude to manage these you can work with a financial planner.
If she goes into a facility then what will happen to her house? It should be sold to pay for her care. If not, it cannot really stay empty (or it will become uninsurable). When one is on Medicaid, after the person passes there is Medicaid recovery which means a lien is put on the house which has to be cleared by the next owner, whether that's you or a buyer.
P.S. The person looking after her cats, or any other person going in to her home unattended is not a good policy. You need to go there and get anything valuable stowed away securely: jewelry, cash, opioids, silverware, etc. This type of petty theft is a crime of opportunity. Don't trust anyone.
All the replies are greatly appreciated an are being studied.
My only concern for the house was she is depressed being away from home. Im not sure if she can handle living in a facility. I know loosing her pets would be a final blow.
She got a visit from legal aid but they will not discuss anything. I was hoping they could advise on how to access her account to pay her bills to a place that declared her incompetent. Her funds are tied up. I cant hire anyone to help without accessing her funds. It is looking like an outside party has to step in.
I just wrote another poster that I don't get all this stuff today about how everyone needs to be/expects to be "happy-all-the-time". That isn't normal life. Old age is a time of one loss after another and there's no upside coming (at 82 I guarantee that). It is a time to attempt to be as content as you can in those circumstances. And Ken, YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE for her happiness. Don't try to be. This is a time of great imperfection and great uncertainty and many losses. That's just a fact. This is the time when you will tell her you will attempt to help and support, but there are a lot of potholes on this road, and you need to count on good springback when you hit them.
Very wise words. She has been a gem and still is. She had a hard life and served everyone else so selflessly. I was hoping her last years would not be more suffering.
Hopefully if a third party manages her finances and she receives Medicaid, I could move her to a better place. Have to figure out how to afford an advisor/attorney.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
B.
APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
A medical doctor can test and provide a diagnosis but is not the one to say whether someone is legally incapacitated or not.
One can go online and download PoA forms, assigning a rep this way (which my Mom did) but it gets hairy if there is contentions within a family. I'm an only child and my Mom is single. She did hers a long time ago. We filled it out, signed it with the requisite witnesses and notarized so it is legally finalized. Again, only do this if there is no chance of any family getting weird about it. We see LOTS of that here on this forum.
Guardianship is pursued through the courts. It can be very expensive for family to go this route and they still must prove incapacity. The difference here is that the guardian is assigned by a judge whether the elder wants a specific person or not, but they are usually so incapacitated that they are unawares.
One can create a Pre-Need Guardianship (legal form) where a person who has capacity names a desired person in the case where the PoA assignment gets screwed up (usually by the elder). Sometimes if a judge sees family infighting over guardianship s/he will assign a 3rd party guardian, or co-guardian (family member + a 3rd party guardian).
If the elder winds up with a court assigned 3rd party guardian, then the family no longer has any control or insight into their elder's affairs. They will be locked out of residences and accounts immediately. No "protected" info is shared (like banking or medical info) but family can still carry on a relationship as long as it is healthy and in the elder's best interests.
If you want input, then you either become the PoA or pursue family guardianship through the courts.
Look up what the POA can do. Basically, if your Mom can give you this, eventually you will be paying all the bills for her; you would register as the signee for all her accounts, handle all money into and out of account and also keep meticulous records. You are responsible to your MOTHER and not to the court unless you are accused of wrong-doing and someone hires a lawyer to petition the court to examine your records. I did POA and Trustee for my brother and did everything, leaving him a small personal account and giving him monthly accountings. THIS WAS DIFFICULT to do from half the state away and I had to fly to him often. It would be WORSE to attempt for you long distance. To be honest, it is VERY DIFFICULT.
Every single entity and bank out there wants something different from you, and puts you through their own wringer until you are literally nuts with it all. It is worse today I am hearing with every entity outsourcing everything, and the folks who handle the outsourcing being not trained, visa workers from East India brought here to work in sort of ghetto home environments.
I am just saying I would not do it. I would not be either POA or Guardian long distance and would NEVER EVER CONSIDER GUARDIAN. Let the state take that on. You can't do anything without court permission and guess what that includes? You CANNOT EVEN RESIGN without court permission. Do not take this on in my humble opinion.
Do you really want to handle all this? Sales? Of a home and heaven knows what else? Do you want to handle all the taxes and all the problems when SS says to you "Nope, a POA means nothing to us; from us you have to make yourself the representative payee".
If you haven't done this, don't have time, don't have the knowledge tell this volunteer attorney to let the state appoint a court Fiduciary.
Do know, however, if you do that your opinion about sale of anything, placement and where and when it occurs, etc. will not matter. They handle everything.
That's just the opinion of someone who did this out of love and obligation and found the learning curve very steep indeed. I did it 5 years ago when my brother, newly diagnosed with Lewy's asked it of me. I would never do it again, and would ask that a Fiduciary be appointed, but then I am now 82, and honestly the hours on the phone were a nightmare. I once spent from 10 a.m. in the morning to 4:30 p.m. on the phone with spectrum when they inadvertently took the phone service out of my brother's room instead of another resident who had died. I talked to folks across this country and from East India all day. That's how long it took. It was really a farce, but one with nightmareish aspects to it. And this was for a well organized man who had everything set up and in place. So go figure what it would have been otherwise.
It would be ideal to have someone handle the financial side of things like a helper but allow my mom to keep her house or choose a better facility. I guess once someone else is appointed you loose all control?
If she has the funds, you can hire a bookkeeper to help handle the financial side of things, but how many things does she really have to manage? As PoA you can become joint on her financial accounts and then put all her bills on auto Bill Pay. You can hire a accountant to do any taxes. And once the Medicaid app is complete and she is qualified, then you will only need to reapply maybe 1 or 2 years more and if there's no change she won't have to reapply for several years. Maybe she has a lot of investments to manage? If she assigns you latitude to manage these you can work with a financial planner.
If she goes into a facility then what will happen to her house? It should be sold to pay for her care. If not, it cannot really stay empty (or it will become uninsurable). When one is on Medicaid, after the person passes there is Medicaid recovery which means a lien is put on the house which has to be cleared by the next owner, whether that's you or a buyer.
P.S. The person looking after her cats, or any other person going in to her home unattended is not a good policy. You need to go there and get anything valuable stowed away securely: jewelry, cash, opioids, silverware, etc. This type of petty theft is a crime of opportunity. Don't trust anyone.
My only concern for the house was she is depressed being away from home. Im not sure if she can handle living in a facility. I know loosing her pets would be a final blow.
She got a visit from legal aid but they will not discuss anything. I was hoping they could advise on how to access her account to pay her bills to a place that declared her incompetent. Her funds are tied up. I cant hire anyone to help without accessing her funds. It is looking like an outside party has to step in.
She has been a gem and still is. She had a hard life and served everyone else so selflessly. I was hoping her last years would not be more suffering.
Hopefully if a third party manages her finances and she receives Medicaid, I could move her to a better place. Have to figure out how to afford an advisor/attorney.