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And what happens when SS claws back the last month's deposit that was used for rent? My mom has no assets left and I want to avoid complications of settling everything.
Credit cards bills in the name of your mother are labeled on outside of envelope as "deceased; no estate; return to sender" or open it, write that, return envelope. Clawback is done and you won't see that money again. If there are ZERO assets, no home, no car, no value in possessions and no accounts then you will not even have to file probate. There is nothing you have to do at this point but return bills as I said or don't bother at all. The deceased can only be sued if they have an estate with money. Do know clawback includes all assets, even such things as cars with title in their name You won't see the SS again. There won't be any payment for the rental. The landlord will have to empty the unit at his or her loss and rerent.
Don't worry about things like credit cards. She'll have no credit to ruin. If she has any points built up, they'll likely keep those as payment. If it's paid off, they'll send a check to the estate for the value of any unused points.
That said, don't go crazy spending with the knowledge she can't pay. That's unethical.
Unethical and it could potentially get one in hot water. I'm a guardian, and was told by a lawyer to make sure my mother's funeral is pre-paid. Because the minute she dies, my guardianship ends, and I lose all rights to spend a red cent of her money, even for things that are clearly for her benefit. And I would be called into court to account for myself. That applies whether I'm writing a check out of her guardianship checking account or putting something on a credit card that I use for her expenses, to later reimburse myself.
I'm not sure if the same exact rules apply for the OP, but if the credit card company were to get wind of the fact that purchases were made on mother's credit card after her death, there could be legal ramifications. I'm adding this for the benefit of anyone reading this who might be getting ideas.
You may be the POA now, and the estate executor when mom passes, but you are NOT personally responsible for the debt. By law, family members do not have to pay the debts of a deceased relative from their own money. If there isn't enough money in mom's estate to cover the debt, it usually goes unpaid. When she passes away, notify all creditors, in writing, of her death and include a copy of the death certificate. Also, you should notify the three credit bureaus in writing to stop anyone from opening a new line of credit using the identity of the deceased (it happens all the time). If there are assets (a long-forgotten bank account, for instance), a creditor will attempt to collect from those assets. Again, you are not personally liable. An estate attorney can walk you through the process.
When my FIL died, my DH did send a copy of the death certificate to his CC companies and we didn't get any hassles, thank goodness!
The only thing he 'left behind' was his new dentures, which were ready for him 2 months after he died. I did go pay for those and then left them with the dentist. In that case, he'd accrued a debt that had a real expectation of being paid. (I'm being pretty loosy goosy with the actual law wording on that).
For your moms SS$, if she does not live the entire previous month, there is the possibility that the next month SSA will pay that month but will do a clawback. However SSA has gotten really good on doing the matchup on death notices, so if she dies before the 20th/22nd, SSA will probably catch that she is deceased so no payment = no clawback.
If her rent is not paid, then it’s going to be whatever your state has for eviction process as to what happens to her apt and her contents in it. So if there are things there you want / that have sentimental value for your family, I’d try to get those moved out now.
I have a ? for you, is there anything left in her checking account where the SSA $ goes into each month after her rent is paid? Im assuming there is and this is what she is using to pay on those CC, for food, other personal expenses. If so, are you a signatory and are POD (pay on death) on that checking account? if not, I’d do whatever needed to have her go to the bank to do this change to her bank account(s) asap. This way whatever $ in it as day after her day of death passes to you outside of probate. Her account will probably be frozen for deposits and checks paid but the POD allows It becomes your $ and this you can use to pay for whatever items needed to cover items not paid from her existing funeral and burial policy or use to pay for funeral items if there is not policy or other debts of hers you choose to pay.
To be quite blunt, if $ is beyond tight and the likelihood is that mom will not be here in 2023, she could stop paying those CC entirely. They are unsecured debt. So unless she has a home and her state allows for a judgement to be attached onto a home, there is basically nothing a Cc company can do to get payment. Eventually the CC will turn it over to collections. Her SS income cannot be attached by a creditor like a CC or their debt collectors. When she dies, her debt dies with her unless she actually has $ & assets to compromise an Estate that needs probate opened. Otherwise those creditors are flat out of luck.
Yes all accounts are POD… my mom has on her CC an ambulance bill and a lift chair.. I typically pay all her balance off each month. Right now I pay the minimum. , But now I am staring down the face of turning in a meager life insurance policy to pay irrevocable trust for funeral, and enough money left from that , two months of rent , and starting the Medicaid process. Not planning on leaving CC company in the lurch, but I was wondering what happens if she passed before CC is paid off.. thanks !
The debt dies with her. Don't pay any of those credit card bills. They are not in your name. As for the rent, there is nothing you have to do about that since the apartment she is renting is in her name. Just get the things out of there you want and forget the rest. People die all of the time and don't have a soul to handle their affairs. I had this happen to a couple of my neighbors. The maintenance folks just cleared out her apartment. Her brother took what he wanted and went back home to Florida.
My Dad passed on September 28th. I immediately called SS and they told me the payment had likely already been made and that it would be automatically taken back out. After a month the payment was taken out and my Mothers new payment was deposited.
they had a credit card with about $200.00 in charges and just yesterday the charges were credited back to my Mother in the form of a check to my Fathers estate.
my brother died 2 weeks ago in Florida. He had no assets but did have a storefront with a lot of junk. He owed rent for the month which technically we didn't have to pay but we did to allow his friend to remove the stuff in peace. The landlord was hounding his friend for the rent!
as for credit cards, I called them immediately and they were immediately closed by the credit card companies. My Mother was an authorized user but could no longer use them
when my Dad died we got a lawyer to make sure things were in place so I could handle her estate. The first bit of advice he gave me was to have her put me on her bank account so it didn't go into probate.
Please be careful using advice given in this forum. No one knows your exact situation nor do they know the laws in your state. While everyone's advice is based on truth as it applied in their situation, their advice may not be applicable to your situation. Do not assume anything and read the fine print on each account's information if you can't consult an attorney. You may want to check into whatever free legal services that may be available to your mother.
A bit of advice to anyone reading this... if at all possible, everyone should make long term care plans and legal end-of-life plans so your children/heirs will not have these concerns. None of us is guaranteed a long, happy, healthy life to be able to put off these plans and unfortunately I do realize it is not something everyone can afford to do.
This is why a qualified estate attorney is important, if affordable, to give advice according to the laws of the state where you live. Any attorney can help, but may not know the latest estate laws. (I learned this the expensive way.) This way you can know the responsibilities, benefits and even liabilities with each type of account. Read each comment here and use them to make a list of questions to take to an attorney. As far as unpaid or even credit balances after a death, everything depends on how the names are listed as owners/users, etc. on accounts. There are so many ways to share accounts using the terms "and" or using "or" and even POD, etc. and each bring different benefits/consequences. While it is important to have access to someone's accounts when you are helping them, it pays to be careful how they are set up to avoid lawsuits or costly probate issues. As far as unused credit card points, a friend lost all of theirs after her husband died when she did not handle it properly.
So I don’t know if I am on my moms recently knew checking account or not and due to things that have happen ( her 5th bank in a year ) long story associated with that .. she won’t tell me either .. but I am her power of attorney - even though I have been told by one bank that it ain’t worth the paper it’s on due to it was drawn up 2013 and how did they know if she hadn’t since then put some one else . .. so I don’t know .. what would I do if she does past away she is 73 and has been dx with early stage Alzheimer’s about 2 years ago now and it’s getting worse
Immediately notify Social Security of the death. If your mother is ina hospital or a faciloty, the facility may report her SSN, but you should do it also, to be sure. If SS has already sent a payment for which your mother is not eligible, report it or return it and do not add it into the check register. Treat it it as if it does not exist. If she has rent due, you or her estate will probably have to pay that until you have cleared out her apartment.
Consult an estate attorney. You need to know the laws in your state.
I was in the same position. I consulted a recommended estate/wills attorney. Told him everything. It only took the one phone consult, and he didn't even charge me.
Ssounds like you have a funeral/cremation policy? If so, check the terms. Mom's required pmt in full before they'd pickup the body. Once that process kicks in, the funeral place handled all the death certs and notified SS. What ever SS send (mom's was auto deposit), they will want back from date of death forward. So, don't touch it until they reclaim their portion. Also, don't close that account until that's settled.
Note that if your parent has death benefits, they will be paid to the "estate of..." and you can't just cash those. You have to have an estate account. Ask attorney about this snd what is required for you to set that up. weigh the costs against the benefit pmts. May not be worth it. Mom received $60. I just let it go because, on advice, Mom died intestate. But if it's sizable benefit, then you may need to be named the executor. Only the person with power after death can do this. What's required in your state?
If the funeral policy has a balance, stop paying CC and any other unsecured debt until that's paid off WITH MOM'S MONEY, not yours.
Know the laws in you state. Also, know the difference between secure and unsecure debt.
Rrequest about 10 copies of the death certificate. (The funeral place (policy) usually handles getting those for you. Know the terms of the policy! ) Make more copies. Any bills received after death that are not in your name you should do what others have said. Write "deceased" across it and include a copy of the death cert. Reserve the originals for creditors that require one.
POA powers end at the moment of death.
While POA is still active, remove your name and anyone else from joint accounts. Except the POD. POD usually doesn't go thru probate. Stop using any CC and close them if you can; however, most CC require PIF to close. So. you may just have to let them go on unpaid. Debtor/Creditor Law is Federal, FYI. If parents are paying on an asset. like home appliance or furniture, notify the creditor that pmts will stop now and they can come get it. Most likely they won't. After death, send them a death cert copy with a letter saying they have x number of days to come get it.
If attorney advises intestate and skip probate, burn all existing wills/copies. My mom had drawn up her own will and used another state that required debt paid. Then she put language in there to hog tie us to pay all her debts. Invalid in current state. Attorney said burn it since she has no assets. Predeath with Mom's consent. Hospice was very helpful in discussing this with Mom.
Please consult an estate/wills attorney to get the facts for your situation.
It is a crime to “burn” or otherwise destroy another individual’s will. I do not understand why an attorney told you to do that. Again, it is a crime. Please refrain from advising other people to take such actions.
Excellent answers here along with the caveat to use an estate attorney and not "do it yourself" advice. One more warning about CC debt or any debt, is DO NOT pay one cent of your own money on the debt, because if you do this, you are taking on the debt as if it were your responsibility. It is NOT yours, it belongs to the person who made the debt. If a bill was sent to you with a comment that said 'your neighbor said you'll pay this bill' you wouldn't pay it! So treat your parents unpaid CC bill the same way. It is not yours. Even so, credit collectors might hound you (they did us until we learned we were not responsible), but stand firm. And get an estate attorney asap.
From my understanding from this site, it is most ideal for someone to pass on the first day of the month yet if so that month will not be eligible for SS payment. If one passes at 11:59 on the last day of the month SS will take back the payment if already made.
If anyone feels like it please correct me if I am wrong. It seems incredibly unfair and the month should be pro rated but that is not the case.
I hope you are able to take the advice of others. If your mother had a deposit on her rental perhaps you can use that for her last month. I realize I am projecting as she is still alive and of course you can't plan her death. I am just stating what I believe to be the fact. I am dealing with a bedridden mother in SN so I certainly feel for all you are going through.
You can request a waiver from Social Security to explain that the payment was used for her rent and rent paid does not get refunded. As for her credit card bill. When your mother passes you or whoever had her POA calls the credit card company and tells them she passed away. Then the credit card company will put in a request to her estate when it's probated in court for payment on bills that are owed. If there is nothing to pay them with, then those bills are defaulted on. You will not be responsible to pay for them.
Does she really need an Estate Attorney if her Mom has no assets left?
When my Dad passed, he had no assets nor will. Thus, there was no need for probate.
We just called the credit card companies and advised them of his death. A few requested death certificate copies, but I didn't have to send the originals. That was all we did. I had to pay his cremation costs myself because he didn't leave any money or any assets. Other than that, it was all very simple to handle.
You will need to return the last check from SS - it's not prorated.
"We can't pay benefits for the month of death. That means if the person died in July, the check received in August (which is payment for July) must be returned. If the payment is by direct deposit, notify the financial institution as soon as possible so it can return any payments received after death."
This maybe already answered but I just can't read every post so i skimmed.
At time of death, the Funeral Director notifies SS of a persons death. Social Security works just like a payroll check, you get paid after u do the work. This is February so any SS deposited within this month is for January. It has happened that a person dies in Feb and Feb deposit is pulled back, but this is an error on SS part and needs to be reported as such. Now the person who died in February is not entitled to the check deposited in March because that is SS funds from Feb, the month the person dies. If that check is received because the person died after payment was processed, that check will be pulled back. So if Mom dies in Feb her rent should already be covered with the check received in Feb because its January funds.
Credit cards are Moms debt. Once Mom passes if she has a Will the Executor takes over. If there was a POA, that stops at death as does a guardian as stated. If she has any assets, I would use that to pay her funeral, utilities and general bills. Credit Cards would be my last concern if there is no money for payment. If there is money, then pay off. If no money I go with sending the bill back unopened with return to sender, person deceased. Then let the CC contact her again because all they have is her known address. They r just hoping someone gets the mail.
I saw where some suggested an estate attorney. I would not go this far and especially if not enough assets. I would only get a lawyer involved if the CC was trying to sue you or the estate. Then the lawyer can write a nice letter saying that there is no estate and no one else responsible for the debt.
My sister, who worked for Grants as a collector, called a woman trying to collect on a Grants Credit Card. The woman told her "You can't get blood from a stone."
Any one who does not accept the POA contact the lawyer who drew it up and have them contact the company who does not accept it. There are consequences to not accepting it. My mom’s POA was drawn up in 2013 and I have not had a problem.
babsjvd: The funeral director contacts Social Security. A social security check works similarly to a payroll check, e.g. you get paid after you've done the work. Say the person passes away in February, the SS check deposited is actually for January. Mom's credit card debt is her's UNLESS you are a co-signer on her credit card account(s).
Best thing to do is to clear her belongings out of the rental unit asap. She signed the lease (I assume) so unless there's enough in the cking acct, that check is gonna bounce. If a probate is opened they may file a claim to see if mom had any other assets to pay it, but more than likely leasing agent will never get paid.
The leasing agent pretty much knows this at the time of the lease because they do credit reports, other applications and can see how much income a person has. If mom put up a deposit and first/last mo rent to move it - those upfront fees may take care of it. And, in many states the deposit for damages can NOT be used for rent. If unit is cleaned and in good shape, they have to return that to her estate.
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Clawback is done and you won't see that money again.
If there are ZERO assets, no home, no car, no value in possessions and no accounts then you will not even have to file probate.
There is nothing you have to do at this point but return bills as I said or don't bother at all. The deceased can only be sued if they have an estate with money. Do know clawback includes all assets, even such things as cars with title in their name
You won't see the SS again. There won't be any payment for the rental. The landlord will have to empty the unit at his or her loss and rerent.
That said, don't go crazy spending with the knowledge she can't pay. That's unethical.
I'm not sure if the same exact rules apply for the OP, but if the credit card company were to get wind of the fact that purchases were made on mother's credit card after her death, there could be legal ramifications. I'm adding this for the benefit of anyone reading this who might be getting ideas.
Also, I froze my parents' credit even before they died.
The only thing he 'left behind' was his new dentures, which were ready for him 2 months after he died. I did go pay for those and then left them with the dentist. In that case, he'd accrued a debt that had a real expectation of being paid. (I'm being pretty loosy goosy with the actual law wording on that).
All his doctors were paid, but CC companies, no.
If her rent is not paid, then it’s going to be whatever your state has for eviction process as to what happens to her apt and her contents in it. So if there are things there you want / that have sentimental value for your family, I’d try to get those moved out now.
I have a ? for you, is there anything left in her checking account where the SSA $ goes into each month after her rent is paid?
Im assuming there is and this is what she is using to pay on those CC, for food, other personal expenses.
If so, are you a signatory and are POD (pay on death) on that checking account? if not, I’d do whatever needed to have her go to the bank to do this change to her bank account(s) asap. This way whatever $ in it as day after her day of death passes to you outside of probate. Her account will probably be frozen for deposits and checks paid but the POD allows It becomes your $ and this you can use to pay for whatever items needed to cover items not paid from her existing funeral and burial policy or use to pay for funeral items if there is not policy or other debts of hers you choose to pay.
To be quite blunt, if $ is beyond tight and the likelihood is that mom will not be here in 2023, she could stop paying those CC entirely. They are unsecured debt. So unless she has a home and her state allows for a judgement to be attached onto a home, there is basically nothing a Cc company can do to get payment. Eventually the CC will turn it over to collections. Her SS income cannot be attached by a creditor like a CC or their debt collectors. When she dies, her debt dies with her unless she actually has $ & assets to compromise an Estate that needs probate opened. Otherwise those creditors are flat out of luck.
thanks !
they had a credit card with about $200.00 in charges and just yesterday the charges were credited back to my Mother in the form of a check to my Fathers estate.
my brother died 2 weeks ago in Florida. He had no assets but did have a storefront with a lot of junk. He owed rent for the month which technically we didn't have to pay but we did to allow his friend to remove the stuff in peace. The landlord was hounding his friend for the rent!
as for credit cards, I called them immediately and they were immediately closed by the credit card companies. My Mother was an authorized user but could no longer use them
when my Dad died we got a lawyer to make sure things were in place so I could handle her estate. The first bit of advice he gave me was to have her put me on her bank account so it didn't go into probate.
A bit of advice to anyone reading this... if at all possible, everyone should make long term care plans and legal end-of-life plans so your children/heirs will not have these concerns. None of us is guaranteed a long, happy, healthy life to be able to put off these plans and unfortunately I do realize it is not something everyone can afford to do.
This is why a qualified estate attorney is important, if affordable, to give advice according to the laws of the state where you live. Any attorney can help, but may not know the latest estate laws. (I learned this the expensive way.) This way you can know the responsibilities, benefits and even liabilities with each type of account. Read each comment here and use them to make a list of questions to take to an attorney. As far as unpaid or even credit balances after a death, everything depends on how the names are listed as owners/users, etc. on accounts. There are so many ways to share accounts using the terms "and" or using "or" and even POD, etc. and each bring different benefits/consequences. While it is important to have access to someone's accounts when you are helping them, it pays to be careful how they are set up to avoid lawsuits or costly probate issues. As far as unused credit card points, a friend lost all of theirs after her husband died when she did not handle it properly.
If you are an authorized user on any of her credit cards I would remove yourself.
Very important that anything you sign on behalf of your mom is signed as power of attorney and not just your name.
I was in the same position. I consulted a recommended estate/wills attorney. Told him everything. It only took the one phone consult, and he didn't even charge me.
Ssounds like you have a funeral/cremation policy? If so, check the terms. Mom's required pmt in full before they'd pickup the body. Once that process kicks in, the funeral place handled all the death certs and notified SS. What ever SS send (mom's was auto deposit), they will want back from date of death forward. So, don't touch it until they reclaim their portion. Also, don't close that account until that's settled.
Note that if your parent has death benefits, they will be paid to the "estate of..." and you can't just cash those. You have to have an estate account. Ask attorney about this snd what is required for you to set that up. weigh the costs against the benefit pmts. May not be worth it. Mom received $60. I just let it go because, on advice, Mom died intestate.
But if it's sizable benefit, then you may need to be named the executor. Only the person with power after death can do this. What's required in your state?
If the funeral policy has a balance, stop paying CC and any other unsecured debt until that's paid off WITH MOM'S MONEY, not yours.
Know the laws in you state. Also, know the difference between secure and unsecure debt.
Rrequest about 10 copies of the death certificate. (The funeral place (policy) usually handles getting those for you. Know the terms of the policy! )
Make more copies. Any bills received after death that are not in your name you should do what others have said. Write "deceased" across it and include a copy of the death cert. Reserve the originals for creditors that require one.
POA powers end at the moment of death.
While POA is still active, remove your name and anyone else from joint accounts. Except the POD. POD usually doesn't go thru probate. Stop using any CC and close them if you can; however, most CC require PIF to close. So. you may just have to let them go on unpaid. Debtor/Creditor Law is Federal, FYI. If parents are paying on an asset. like home appliance or furniture, notify the creditor that pmts will stop now and they can come get it. Most likely they won't. After death, send them a death cert copy with a letter saying they have x number of days to come get it.
If attorney advises intestate and skip probate, burn all existing wills/copies. My mom had drawn up her own will and used another state that required debt paid. Then she put language in there to hog tie us to pay all her debts. Invalid in current state. Attorney said burn it since she has no assets. Predeath with Mom's consent. Hospice was very helpful in discussing this with Mom.
Please consult an estate/wills attorney to get the facts for your situation.
Since mom
If anyone feels like it please correct me if I am wrong. It seems incredibly unfair and the month should be pro rated but that is not the case.
I hope you are able to take the advice of others. If your mother had a deposit on her rental perhaps you can use that for her last month. I realize I am projecting as she is still alive and of course you can't plan her death. I am just stating what I believe to be the fact. I am dealing with a bedridden mother in SN so I certainly feel for all you are going through.
As for her credit card bill. When your mother passes you or whoever had her POA calls the credit card company and tells them she passed away. Then the credit card company will put in a request to her estate when it's probated in court for payment on bills that are owed. If there is nothing to pay them with, then those bills are defaulted on. You will not be responsible to pay for them.
When my Dad passed, he had no assets nor will. Thus, there was no need for probate.
We just called the credit card companies and advised them of his death. A few requested death certificate copies, but I didn't have to send the originals.
That was all we did.
I had to pay his cremation costs myself because he didn't leave any money or any assets. Other than that, it was all very simple to handle.
"We can't pay benefits for the month of death. That means if the person died in July, the check received in August (which is payment for July) must be returned. If the payment is by direct deposit, notify the financial institution as soon as possible so it can return any payments received after death."
https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10077.pdf
At time of death, the Funeral Director notifies SS of a persons death. Social Security works just like a payroll check, you get paid after u do the work. This is February so any SS deposited within this month is for January. It has happened that a person dies in Feb and Feb deposit is pulled back, but this is an error on SS part and needs to be reported as such. Now the person who died in February is not entitled to the check deposited in March because that is SS funds from Feb, the month the person dies. If that check is received because the person died after payment was processed, that check will be pulled back. So if Mom dies in Feb her rent should already be covered with the check received in Feb because its January funds.
Credit cards are Moms debt. Once Mom passes if she has a Will the Executor takes over. If there was a POA, that stops at death as does a guardian as stated. If she has any assets, I would use that to pay her funeral, utilities and general bills. Credit Cards would be my last concern if there is no money for payment. If there is money, then pay off. If no money I go with sending the bill back unopened with return to sender, person deceased. Then let the CC contact her again because all they have is her known address. They r just hoping someone gets the mail.
I saw where some suggested an estate attorney. I would not go this far and especially if not enough assets. I would only get a lawyer involved if the CC was trying to sue you or the estate. Then the lawyer can write a nice letter saying that there is no estate and no one else responsible for the debt.
My sister, who worked for Grants as a collector, called a woman trying to collect on a Grants Credit Card. The woman told her "You can't get blood from a stone."
The leasing agent pretty much knows this at the time of the lease because they do credit reports, other applications and can see how much income a person has. If mom put up a deposit and first/last mo rent to move it - those upfront fees may take care of it. And, in many states the deposit for damages can NOT be used for rent. If unit is cleaned and in good shape, they have to return that to her estate.